Tipping Guides

ViperScale . wrote: Not completely off topic the point is don't let the tipping of guides get so screwed up like waiters at a restaurant. Guiding hasn't to far gone to try to fix it to get rid of tipping.

Probably the bigger problem is someone who thinks writing / spelling is a sign of intelligence of a person. 

It is.

How about making an argument against what I am saying instead of falling back to attacking spelling?

It's already been made.  Several times.  Successfully.

Sad really how many people look at something like the other 90% of society instead of looking at ways that things could be improved.

amarius wrote:

 A quick search on "payscale" brings up different numbers.

U.S. Postal Service Salary

I didn't say they all made that I was talking about those who have been there a long time. Also those values ignore overtime which any carrier can sign up for overtime which is 1.5x normal hourly rate and doesn't show on a base scale.

Back to the spelling it is more about reading than spelling. You can read completely misspelled words if you are not stupid.

It deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Eric Fjellanger wrote: That wasn't a guide you hired, he was just some guy.
You weren't a guide when you went out with those few people, you were just some guy.
If anything had gone wrong in either of the situations you outline, everyone would have been totally fucked.
Guides are professionals who climb with people who need guiding. Climbing is their job. Most of them do enjoy it most of the time, the same way other people enjoy their jobs. It's still a job. They still have to perform well and keep clients safe even if they're not having a good day, even if their clients suck and won't tip.
If you don't understand or value what you're buying when you hire a guide, don't hire a guide. You sound like a selfish ignorant child. You refusing to tip isn't going to fix tipping culture, it's just going to subtract from the livelihood of any individual you hire.
Please stop giving advice here. You never ever know what you're talking about.

So when a local college got permits and offered me 300$ to take a group of people who have never been outside to climb it doesn't make me a guide for a day? (I turned down the money didn't want any but still took them out so maybe since I didn't take the payment it doesn't make me a guide even though I had to have the permit to take the group?)

"B-b-but they're getting paid to do the same thing that I'm paying to do! Why do they need a tip??" - myself before reading this topic or even spending one second thinking about it

Ryan Swanson wrote: Again-  Guides, how big of a percentage of your wages comes from tips would you estimate?

I'm a long time part time guide.  20% to 30% of my wages are tips.  When you pay a guide service, ballpark that the guide will get 50% of what you pay if it's one or two people, with a rapidly decreasing percentage for larger groups.  Several have implied or said that the guide agencies are ripping their guides off.  I don't think anyone has mentioned the insurance or permit costs that a guide agency incurs.  Most are operating on pretty thin profit margins.  In the vast majority of the US, guides can't legally freelance.  So they need to be hired by an agency.  When you pay for a guide, the guide gets the biggest chunk of that money, the insurance company gets the second biggest chunk, the land management entity issuing the permits gets the next biggest chunk.  Neither being a guide or running a guide service is a get rich quick scheme.  And while I do love the work, it's work.  I'm certainly not out climbing what I'd be climbing for myself.

ViperScale . wrote: I was out on a work trip onetime and was talking about getting a guide to do some stuff for night climbing in a very limited time frame. The area where I was out had questionable legality for climbing at night although it wasn't illegal so the guiding company just told me here is a number of a guy that will go with you pay him whatever you were planning on paying us. I like that better than paying 300$ + and not knowing what was going to the guide etc.

Maybe they should tell you how much the guide is making so you know how much to time but at the same time that may make people not want to hire a guide at all when 90% is going to a company that just set it up.

I have done very limited guiding of trips mostly just taking a few people out and setting up top rope for them (I just like being outside even if I am baby sitting others don't need to pay me). Whenever I have been out with a guide it isn't probably like a normal guide taking out people. I have had guides tell me I was the first person they ever let lead anything so I think when I have been out with a guide it is more like them just getting paid to have fun climbing not really looking out after someone new.

That wasn't a guide you hired, he was just some guy.

You weren't a guide when you went out with those few people, you were just some guy.

If anything had gone wrong in either of the situations you outline, everyone would have been totally fucked.

Guides are professionals who climb with people who need guiding. Climbing is their job. Most of them do enjoy it most of the time, the same way other people enjoy their jobs. It's still a job. They still have to perform well and keep clients safe even if they're not having a good day, even if their clients suck and won't tip.

If you don't understand or value what you're buying when you hire a guide, don't hire a guide. You sound like a selfish ignorant child. You refusing to tip isn't going to fix tipping culture, it's just going to subtract from the livelihood of any individual you hire.

Please stop giving advice here. You never ever know what you're talking about.

Eric Fjellanger wrote:

That wasn't a guide you hired, he was just some guy.

You weren't a guide when you went out with those few people, you were just some guy.

If anything had gone wrong in either of the situations you outline, everyone would have been totally fucked.

Guides are professionals who climb with people who need guiding. Climbing is their job. Most of them do enjoy it most of the time, the same way other people enjoy their jobs. It's still a job. They still have to perform well and keep clients safe even if they're not having a good day, even if their clients suck and won't tip.

If you don't understand or value what you're buying when you hire a guide, don't hire a guide. You sound like a selfish ignorant child. You refusing to tip isn't going to fix tipping culture, it's just going to subtract from the livelihood of any individual you hire.

Please stop giving advice here. You never ever know what you're talking about.

Well-said. "Spot on," as they say in England or wherever.

ViperScale . wrote:

Not true read through the rest of this thread people expect others to tip.

What percent of your tips were given because you thought the person did a great job vs just giving a tip because it is expected?

It mopst certainly is true. I worked as a climbing guide off and on for almost three decades. We always went out just trying to go do a great job and give our clients a wonderful and safe experience. I don't ever remember heading out with the expectation or assumption that I would get a tip, but I was always extremely appreciative when I was tipped. 

Not tipping is stupid and dangerous.

Spaggett, Gotcha! wrote: Not tipping is stupid and dangerous.

Yer Gunna Tip.

Ryan Swanson wrote:

Thank you.

If you were guiding full time, would the wage be what you consider livable?

If I could get 5 days a week in, yes.  It is seasonal work in many areas.  Most full time guides will travel from one seasonal gig to another.  

So, from a guide perspective, what do you feel is a fair tip for a full day’s work (say cumulative amongst all the clients since sometimes it’s 1-on-1 and sometimes a class of a few people)?

In the past I’ve tipped but maybe I’ve been unwittingly stingy.

ViperScale . wrote:

And that is what is %#() up with the tipping in the US. You are generally considered stingy even if you don't tip when someone is shit. So everyone tends to tip even if the person is shit so it is meaningless for your average person that should be working harder for a tip.

I tend to go eat at all the same places every week where I live. They all know me and I tip pretty good but I also walk into the restaurant they tell me to sit down and they bring out my food like 5mins later. If it took 45mins to get my food though you are still considered to tip right? so what difference is tipping making to the service?

I am 100% in agreement that tips being an expected part of wages should be illegal, for the reasons you mention in this post. I haven't seen any posts here saying that we think tipping is a great system. I don't think anyone is saying that.

But it's not illegal, and not tipping doesn't solve the problem. It only screws one poor person who has no part in creating the problem you're complaining about.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I am 100% in agreement that tips being an expected part of wages should be illegal, for the reasons you mention in this post. I haven't seen any posts here saying that we think tipping is a great system. I don't think anyone is saying that.

But it's not illegal, and not tipping doesn't solve the problem. It only screws one poor person who has no part in creating the problem you're complaining about.

Tipping in the US is just a marketing scam. No different than all the phone / cable companies who advertise big cheap prices that only last 6 months and have small print you can't read that say it doubles in price after 6 months. Tipping is basically the same saying have a nice meal or service for X amount of money but a few hours later when the service is over you have to pay more money not included in the original price. Amazon is the same you have people listing the same product for all different prices and some of the really cheap ones force you to pay shipping and others cost more but with free shipping are really cheaper.

ViperScale . wrote:

Tipping in the US is just a marketing scam. No different than all the phone / cable companies who advertise big cheap prices that only last 6 months and have small print you can't read that say it doubles in price after 6 months. Tipping is basically the same saying have a nice meal or service for X amount of money but a few hours later when the service is over you have to pay more money not included in the original price. Amazon is the same you have people listing the same product for all different prices and some of the really cheap ones force you to pay shipping and others cost more but with free shipping are really cheaper.

I am 100% in agreement that tips being an expected part of wages should be illegal, for the reasons you mention in this post. I haven't seen any posts here saying that we think tipping is a great system. I don't think anyone is saying that.

But it's not illegal, and not tipping doesn't solve the problem. It only screws one poor person who has no part in creating the problem you're complaining about.

David Kerkeslager wrote:

I am 100% in agreement that tips being an expected part of wages should be illegal, for the reasons you mention in this post. I haven't seen any posts here saying that we think tipping is a great system. I don't think anyone is saying that.

But it's not illegal, and not tipping doesn't solve the problem. It only screws one poor person who has no part in creating the problem you're complaining about.

So there is a problem we know about but you just want to deal with the problem instead of trying to find a solution to fix the problem?

ViperScale . wrote:

So there is a problem we know about but you just want to deal with the problem instead of trying to find a solution to fix the problem?

I might buy that kind of argument if in addition to refraining from tipping you were simultaneously campaigning for a local ballot measure to eliminate tipping, or circulating petitions to get restaurants to pay a living wage or something like that.  It's oddly convenient that the most parsimonious option is your chosen "solution".  One person refusing to tip doesn't fix anything and doesn't have anything to do with seeking a solution.

ViperScale . wrote:

So there is a problem we know about but you just want to deal with the problem instead of trying to find a solution to fix the problem?

So there's a problem we know about but you just want to screw one poor person who has nothing to do with the problem instead of trying to find a solution to fix the problem?

Snark aside, there have been numerous bills in both my states' and national congress that have tried to change minimum wage laws to make them more fair, and I've always supported them in any ways I can, but they've always been shot down. There are a few restaurants I've been to that don't accept tips, and pay their workers a living wage, and reflect that in the cost of their food, and I've always tried to support those establishments both with my business and by word of mouth recommendations, and some of these are doing quite well. Either of these are far better solutions that might actually help instead of just screwing over every waitstaff you come in contact with.

EDIT: If you insist on seeing this from the egocentric perspective of "It's so unfair to me that I'm expected to pay waitstaff what their work is worth" instead of "It's so unfair to waitstaff that it's optional for pinchpennies to pay them what their work is worth", consider that better tipping causes better service, not the other way around. When I worked in food service, I knew which regulars tipped well and which ones didn't. And when things went wrong in food production which they inevitably did in ways that were out of my control, you can easily guess whose food I prioritized first, who I went the extra mile to get a discount from my manager for, etc. It certainly wasn't the people who didn't tip me because I didn't stroke their sense of entitlement enough.

Thankfully, I don't work in food service any more, but I tip pretty well wherever I go and I try to treat waitstaff cordially like my equals (because they are), and it's obvious that waitstaff notice. It's gone so far as me regularly receiving a senior citizen discount at one establishment I frequent--I'm not even halfway to retirement age and I look young for my age.

ViperScale . wrote:

So there is a problem we know about but you just want to deal with the problem instead of trying to find a solution to fix the problem?

I'm curious as to what actions you've taken to finding a solution.

Not tipping people in tipped positions is cheap.
Not tipping people in tipped positions and cloaking yourself as an ethical crusader for it is being an a**hole.

mikek wrote:

I'm curious as to what actions you've taken to finding a solution.

Not tipping people in tipped positions is cheap.
Not tipping people in tipped positions and cloaking yourself as an ethical crusader for it is being an a**hole.

I am part owner (investor) in a few businesses that normally have tipped employees. We have signs that say please don't tip and we pay our employees. However this is just 1 business, honestly if 50% of the country stopped tipping it would force a change. However it will hurt for a short while and if only 10-20% of the population was to do it than nothing would change.

How much do you think services are going to cost in your future utopia where tipping has gone out of style?

I live in Seattle and I have some news you might not be ready for.