New and Experienced Climbers over 51

I remember when people could climb without the gym telling them what to do or how to do it.

My lead test was not dying.... ;)

Old lady H wrote:

So you have routes that can be lead that are "easy" but only 5.10 climbers should be doing so???

Yeah, that's a bias! ;-D

You mean a bias to thinking that people should be generally competent climbers before leading? That's fine.

 I don't make the rules, obviously, and I already said I don't think the standard for a lead climb test should be too high. But, having said that, a 5.10a or b in most gyms is nothing tricky. So my observation is that if a person is still struggling with basic skills for how to go up something as straightforward as a 5.10b it's not the worst thing for them to wait a bit to start leading until they're capable of basic low-intermediate climbing.

I'm also sure that if someone came to my gym management with a physical handicap or other limitation that somehow prevented them from climbing a 5.10b but could otherwise show that they were safe and competent leading on an easier grade there would be an exception made.  

Señor Arroz wrote:

 I don't make the rules, obviously, and I already said I don't think the standard for a lead climb test should be too high. But, having said that, a 5.10a or b in most gyms is nothing tricky. So my observation is that if a person is still struggling with basic skills for how to go up something as straightforward as a 5.10b it's not the worst thing for them to wait a bit to start leading until they're capable of basic low-intermediate climbing.

I disagree with you on that. Maybe it's because BITD my experience was of people just starting to lead outside at whatever level they were at -- often 5.7 or 5.8. Gym leading seems pretty safe to me. It's bad belaying that, IMO, is the bigger danger. And I think there's something to be said for developing a lead head early on.

Good evening fellow oldies!
Well I tested out my new trad rack today and decided I need a set of smaller nuts (stop giggling).
I led some easy stuff, a (aus) grade 8, 11 & 15.
Bit windy today, almost spring, I'm feeling bouncy, and as MGMT say in 'Time to Pretend' 
"I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw I'm in the time of my life" ...

Carl Schneider wrote: Good evening fellow oldies!
Well I tested out my new trad rack today and decided I need a set of smaller nuts (stop giggling).
I led some easy stuff, a (aus) grade 8, 11 & 15.
Bit windy today, almost spring, I'm feeling bouncy, and as MGMT say in 'Time to Pretend'
"I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw I'm in the time of my life" ...

Carl, you've had a little too much of the tea again!  

Just to clear up some misconceptions... my gym, Pipeworks, is a part of a franchise, and they seem to have iron-clad rules.  I haven't even thought to dispute the rules because Ryan, my coach, works for Pipeworks, and he delivers the lead tests.  I actually took the first lead class about six months ago, and got the mechanics of it down... but to get 'the card', you have to pass the test on a 5.10d 'comfortably'... Ryan said really, it should be a 5.11a.  As much as he'd like this for me, I'm sure he'll let me know when it's time.  

An aside... I don't see me EVER climbing grades into the 11's.  But Ryan sees me climbing them in a month or two... and I'm giving the nod to him.  The truth is, whatever I can do, it has to be 'good enough' for me.  Whatever my best, I'll celebrate it. It was a true breakthrough to manage the 10c this week... it was a type of off-balance sequence that rattled me.  There was a deep satisfaction doing this one.  We did agree that I could be learning to lead on easy grades at Donner right now.  So... win/win.

Likewise, Nelson at Josh Tree has let me pick my pace.  He has not pushed.  All I have to do is say I'm ready... let's go learn trad... he'd be all in.  He seems pretty meticulous... picky... about safety and placing good pro.  He gets irate (seldom see this in him) when people climb unsafely or set sloppy anchors... so he'll teach me well.  But then, with time so short, I give up other things like working on Sexy Grandma and The Flake.  So... it's all good.  For my next trip in September (hopefully) Nelson will be home with a new baby and I'll find another guide.  Some day a guide will be unnecessary.... I haven't known any other way to get up to speed reliably... and it's the first time I've just spent money on myself like this.  It seems contrary to the way climbing 'should' be learned... with a pack of friends, good climbing buddies.  All that is taking time.  

I still have that fantasy of leaving for a month. Camping and climbing daily.  Going back to climbs and doing them over.  I can only imagine the gains then... have any of you been able to do this, and was it great? 

We've been talking about the 'why' of climbing... this picture came up on my FB feed yesterday, and of all the crazy climbing pictures (butt shots, sends, difficult climbs), this is my favorite.  So for me, maybe it's the connection.  Nelson and me, discussing anchors, and gazing out over the desert.  It's a picture of friendship... imo, and I treasure it.

Lori Milas wrote: Just to clear up some misconceptions... my gym, Pipeworks, is a part of a franchise, and they seem to have iron-clad rules.  I haven't even thought to dispute the rules because Ryan, my coach, works for Pipeworks, and he delivers the lead tests.  I actually took the first lead class about six months ago, and got the mechanics of it down... but to get 'the card', you have to pass the test on a 5.10d 'comfortably'... Ryan said really, it should be a 5.11a.  As much as he'd like this for me, I'm sure he'll let me know when it's time.  

Part of a franchise or not, your gym's lead climbing rules seem a little strange. Either they've got very soft grades in that gym, or just not that many people lead climb. Of the gyms around here that I've dealt with, 2 required that the lead test be done on a 5.9 (and not the stiffest 5.9 around), and one (which is part of a franchise) made no mention of difficulty, just insisted that you clip and manage the rope properly, and belay your leader properly. Your gym might want to compare their practices to the rest of the industry.

mark felber wrote: Part of a franchise or not, your gym's lead climbing rules seem a little strange. Either they've got very soft grades in that gym, or just not that many people lead climb. Of the gyms around here that I've dealt with, 2 required that the lead test be done on a 5.9 (and not the stiffest 5.9 around), and one (which is part of a franchise) made no mention of difficulty, just insisted that you clip and manage the rope properly, and belay your leader properly. Your gym might want to compare their practices to the rest of the industry.

Thanks, Mark.  Our other local gym requires a 5.9...  but it's not a gym I can get to often.  But it seems sort of a moot question, since the routes that can be clipped at Pipeworks are all past my skill level anyway.  I will double check to make sure I'm telling it straight.   I watch with awe the athletes who lead climb at our gym, and I do mean seriously strong and skilled climbers who seem to crawl across the ceiling with ease.  (but that's not me). 

Sooooo, Lori? Does Ryan do any setting? Cozy up to somebody, throw down the gaunlet, and challenge them (or him) to set a 'test" route that you can climb! That isn't reachy, or whatever. What makes an 11 at that gym? Clearing a roof? A bit of inverted? Or is it crap that's just pinchy, reachy boulder problems with a rope added? An 11 can be lots of things. If you are well into 10s, you have 11 moves in you, even if not a gym route at that grade. You most certainly have your own advantages to any given climb (or not, that's what we all have to deal with).

In the meantime? See if you can get a second belayer and climb on lead with a toprope backup. They might​ allow that, with certed belayers for both ropes. Make sure the top rope belay is a solid lead belayer, though. They need to both be sharp, to take care of you.

Best, Helen

wendy weiss wrote:

I disagree with you on that. Maybe it's because BITD my experience was of people just starting to lead outside at whatever level they were at -- often 5.7 or 5.8. Gym leading seems pretty safe to me. It's bad belaying that, IMO, is the bigger danger. And I think there's something to be said for developing a lead head early on.

I actually don't think we disagree at all. I learned to lead outdoors. My first lead, ever, was a 5.8 outdoors.

But what I said is that I don't think it's a bad thing if gyms, which, after all, are generally private businesses with a lot of concerns that aren't always immediately apparent to us in the public, decides they want to make their qualification for leading in their gyms that you have to be able to lead a 5.10. I didn't say they SHOULDN'T have a lower policy, but it's their business and their call.  I just don't think that's some super-high barrier. I think almost anyone with a desire to learn to do that can do it within a couple months, at most, of directed effort. I also already said that I think the 5.11a requirement at Lori's gym seems excessive, though, again, if one doesn't like that policy it's definitely possible to find a different gym.

And to circle back to the gyms vs. outdoors thing, there's nothing stopping ANY of us from going out and learning to lead outdoors. I highly recommend it.

Russ Walling wrote: Everyone knows that an "11" in the gym is like 5.8 at Josh... just send them a vid of you leading the Flake and then get a zip tie ready for your new lead card

Russ, you’re going to have to come help. I can’t do it alone. 

We were out today looking for Lola, rounded a bend and oh my goodness...look what showed up!  It was hard to contain myself...all I could think was “coordinates”, which I have. Oh. Come. On. This has to be climbed. There were parts of this range that looked no more than 200 yards from our trail. 

Lola, on the other hand, continues to be elusive. I packed the bikini and plenty of lunch. I’m sorry to say I/we just wore out and never got there. 3.5 miles at 6700 feet with a vertical climb of 600 feet. Shouldn’t have been hard (or should it?) We got most of the way and decided it’s enough for today.
Maybe it’s aging. Maybe it’s not doing enough cardio. Maybe the insane wildfires that were really choking us.  I’ll try again next week. 

Old lady H wrote: Sooooo, Lori? Does Ryan do any setting? Cozy up to somebody, throw down the gaunlet, and challenge them (or him) to set a 'test" route that you can climb! That isn't reachy, or whatever. What makes an 11 at that gym? Clearing a roof? A bit of inverted? Or is it crap that's just pinchy, reachy boulder problems with a rope added? An 11 can be lots of things. If you are well into 10s, you have 11 moves in you, even if not a gym route at that grade. You most certainly have your own advantages to any given climb (or not, that's what we all have to deal with).

While I think the lead test requirement is unnecessarily stiff, I also think asking Ryan to set a test route that you can climb would be selling yourself short. It sounds to me like you're well on your way to getting lead-certified without special consideration. However, if the harder routes at your gym are all set for the tall or the super-powerful, then maybe you should consider switching to a gym with more varied routes. So who's lead climbing at your gym? Do you see other women leading? Are there role models for you there?    

Lori Milas wrote: We were out today looking for Lola, rounded a bend and oh my goodness...look what showed up!  It was hard to contain myself...all I could think was “coordinates”, which I have. Oh. Come. On. This has to be climbed. There were parts of this range that looked no more than 200 yards from our trail.

Lola, on the other hand, continues to be elusive. I packed the bikini and plenty of lunch. I’m sorry to say I/we just wore out and never got there. 3.5 miles at 6700 feet with a vertical climb of 600 feet. Shouldn’t have been hard (or should it?) We got most of the way and decided it’s enough for today.
Maybe it’s aging. Maybe it’s not doing enough cardio. Maybe the insane wildfires that were really choking us.  I’ll try again next week. 

hahahahahaha yep, you've got the bug Lori.

If you tell me exactly where it is I can tell you (maybe) if its been done.

But the fact of the matter is there are a hundreds of miles of crags like that spanning virtually every drainage from the northern Sierra to Mexico....endless new routes to do still.

wendy weiss wrote:

While I think the lead test requirement is unnecessarily stiff, I also think asking Ryan to set a test route that you can climb would be selling yourself short. It sounds to me like you're well on your way to getting lead-certified without special consideration. However, if the harder routes at your gym are all set for the tall or the super-powerful, then maybe you should consider switching to a gym with more varied routes. So who's lead climbing at your gym? Do you see other women leading? Are there role models for you there?    

Wendy, pretty much this is what I was wondering, if the routes are not set such that most climbers can climb them. 

Senor, I am glad you said "almost" in your comment above. 10s, in a gym at least, are not very likely for me, nor something I'd pursue, because of not wanting to subject my hands to injury. Maybe a one move wonder?

Lori, yes, the smoke makes a difference, that vertical gain makes a difference, and so does being at elevation. I don't know what you live at, but I confess, I slow down at 6500, and I live at 2500.

Keep after it, ma'am! You're doing super maaarvelous!

Best, Helen

wendy weiss wrote:

While I think the lead test requirement is unnecessarily stiff, I also think asking Ryan to set a test route that you can climb would be selling yourself short. It sounds to me like you're well on your way to getting lead-certified without special consideration. However, if the harder routes at your gym are all set for the tall or the super-powerful, then maybe you should consider switching to a gym with more varied routes. So who's lead climbing at your gym? Do you see other women leading? Are there role models for you there?    

Oh Wendy...it’s all embarrassing (if I let it be). I see young, thin, petite women who are incredibly agile, and young men who I call Spidermen.  On occasion I see an older person...but Pipeworks is in the heart of Sacramento and the after-5 crowd are young, hip College kids and those just getting off of work. They sashay in and get on those walls. (My weekly session is at noon on a weekday so I almost get the place to myself.)

The bouldering area is apparently the most popular and kids and athletes congregate there. 
Ryan and I have an agreement that I will not try to persuade  him to climb outdoors with me. He really considers that his private and off-duty time so I respect it.  This week I felt like I needed to give him an out from our commitment if he was perhaps getting bored or tired of working with me. Huge smile and assured me NO! He said he looks forward to it. So another special human...
He also continually reminds me that most of the superstars in the gym have never been outside and likely never will be, a reminder that climbing anywhere outdoors is a gift and a rarity. They can hang from the ceilings but wouldn’t know how to manage a slab or crack...or a rock, even!
I’m ok with waiting on leading indoors while starting to get my bearings outdoors. I’m in no hurry. 

Lori Milas wrote:

Oh Wendy...it’s all embarrassing (if I let it be). I see young, thin, petite women who are incredibly agile, and young men who I call Spidermen.  On occasion I see an older person...but Pipeworks is in the heart of Sacramento and the after-5 crowd are young, hip College kids and those just getting off of work. They sashay in and get on those walls. (My weekly session is at noon on a weekday so I almost get the place to myself.)

The bouldering area is apparently the most popular and kids and athletes congregate there. 
Ryan and I have an agreement that I will not try to persuade  him to climb outdoors with me. He really considers that his private and off-duty time so I respect it.  This week I felt like I needed to give him an out from our commitment if he was perhaps getting bored or tired of working with me. Huge smile and assured me NO! He said he looks forward to it. So another special human...
He also continually reminds me that most of the superstars in the gym have never been outside and likely never will be, a reminder that climbing anywhere outdoors is a gift and a rarity. They can hang from the ceilings but wouldn’t know how to manage a slab or crack...or a rock, even!
I’m ok with waiting on leading indoors while starting to get my bearings outdoors. I’m in no hurry. 

Lol! The grass is always greener...

Lori, the word "bikini" is still in your vocabulary!!! And not a mere spelling test!! You yoga!! Etc 

And also? I would bet you a bazillion dollars some of those "superstars" are in awe of you. Yes. You. You do what​? Outside??!!!​  You may never know it, but you are inspiring people, simply by showing up....and trying. They will most likely think you've been at this for decades. When they find out the actual mileage? Their eyebrows shoot up and a huge grin. Enjoy it!

The other part you know, but I will remind you anyway. It's terrifying to be in your twenties. We know that. It's one of the gifts we can give to all those younger people, that it will change. Perspective. The long view. Learning what matters, and it is not stuff. I also have more than a few friends out there, thirties, who greatly appreciate merely being listened to. Apparently it's become a lost art. So has playing. Being a fool. On purpose!

The last gift on our lists, to share with them? The quiet (OR ROWDY LOUD!!) joy of being alive. Until....we aren't. Every single one of us in this thread shares that, I think. It isn't a given, either. I'm betting most of us have had to fight, hard, for it.

Best, Helen

Carl Schneider wrote: Good evening fellow oldies!
Well I tested out my new trad rack today and decided I need a set of smaller nuts (stop giggling).
I led some easy stuff, a (aus) grade 8, 11 & 15.
Bit windy today, almost spring, I'm feeling bouncy, and as MGMT say in 'Time to Pretend' 
"I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw I'm in the time of my life" ...

Get Peenuts. I really like them for small stuff. 

Russ Walling wrote: Everyone knows that an "11" in the gym is like 5.8 at Josh... just send them a vid of you leading the Flake and then get a zip tie ready for your new lead card

This is a good idea. Well, except for the part where you have to learn to lead The Flake instead of just learning to climb a gym climb that's slightly more difficult that you can currently muster. But I like the SENTIMENT.

Señor Arroz wrote:

This is a good idea. Well, except for the part where you have to learn to lead The Flake instead of just learning to climb a gym climb that's slightly more difficult that you can currently muster. But I like the SENTIMENT.

You just have to rub it in.  I was starting to channel my inner Alex...