Ethics of Pitons in the Wasatch

To start i'm not advocating for adding or removing pitons on any climbs, I know people like to get their feathers ruffled.

I've heard a few different opinions about local ethics regarding the replacement and maintenance of pitons and am curious what others think.  I'm specifically curious about climbs where pitons are critical or at least important protection.  I hate reading route descriptions or comments on MP that go along the lines of "The pitons that protect this section are very questionable, shit, garbage, etc."

I've heard a few solutions to this issue:

1.  The old train of thought   Keep replacing or re driving pitons so they are secure.
2.  Jeff Lowe's idea of creative scarring  Basically the placement and careful removal of piton placements should allow routes to be protected with our modern micro gear and we should all be working towards this.
3. It's historic! don't touch it  (Even if it's crap)   I personally think it's cool clipping or just seeing big old bong pitons or weird pins placed on old classics.
4. You rip it on your whipper brah and it's your new trophy!  yay booty?  Sucks for the next guy though...
5. Somewhere in the middle  e.g. If a climb does not accept modern gear on a section that is pin protected these should be maintained and replaced accordingly as established by the FA until option #2 (see above) is a possibility.
6. All pins are time bombs and should be replaced with bolts  

So what do you all think?  As somebody trying to do their part in maintaining climbs what should be done?   So far my involvement has been replacing worn links on belay stations when I see them and cutting off old tat etc.  Basically the minimum.  

If I want to do a climb and the pitons are "shit" and you need them to not be "shit" what should be done?

My current opinion would be to try to contact the FA and/or post on the page asking the community if it's OK to replace the pin or if it can be reasonably protected without said junk pin.

Thoughts?  Comments? Opinions?  Ranting?

And don't worry I don't have some classic climb in mind. You're not gonna see me with a hammer and rack of pins on schoolroom in the coming days ;)

Does this need to be discussed? In the unlikely event that a pin is in needed, and for some reason you’ve brought a hammer along for your cragging day, fix it. Pins are so rarely required I foresee running into this issue once every couple decades. Don’t discuss it on the internet, just do. I trust you. 

Keenan Waeschle wrote:Pins are so rarely required I foresee running into this issue once every couple decades.

I’m lucky I guess?

 Don’t discuss it on the internet, just do.

Oh..  I’m so sorry 

 I trust you. 

:)

Jeff Lowe's idea of creative scarring????

There's a pin goblin operating in LCC/Ferguson who subscribes to #6 and has pulled A LOT of iron out (although he hasn't been active lately). Some of the pins he's pulled left nice scars which take good gear, others haven't. In the latter case I don't think he's ever added a bolt which has resulted in several routes becoming quite R, especially in Fergy with its bouldery and short 2-placement climbs. I'd personally pass on leading some of those now which is a shame...
The TouchUp pin fell/was pulled out a few years ago. There was a discussion about what to do and eventually a replacement was driven in by a respected local, the argument being that the pin was bomber. I don't hear too much complaining about it.

My take:
. If a pin is solid: leave it be and back it up (yes, I realize clipping a draw and yanking out isn't a proper assessment of solidity).
. If a pin is shite but there's good gear around: leave it be and back it up (historical purposes).
. If you decide to pull a pin or it comes out for whatever reason and leaves a good placement: don't do anything.
. If it leaves a placement you wouldn't hang your water bottle from: consult the community, start a shit storm, and go with the concensus (assuming one can be reached). To me replacing the pin makes limited sense. If the argument is that a pin is bomber a bolt would be equally good and less of a PITA to deal with.

Edit: another option is to just replace the pin and not tell anyone. Saves you the internet trauma, people will rarely notice, and complain even less frequently.

Tap the pins upward to remove leaving a v-shaped slot for future clean placements. "Jeff Lowe"

Ron O wrote: Jeff Lowe's idea of creative scarring????

"Constructive scarring"?

https://www.climbing.com/news/tech-tip-aid-constructive-scarring/

Jeff probably stole it from the Russians during one of them Soviet/US climber exchanges...ha ha...

Boissal - wrote: The TouchUp pin fell/was pulled out a few years ago. There was a discussion about what to do and eventually a replacement was driven in by a respected local, the argument being that the pin was bomber. I don't hear too much complaining about it.

Edit: another option is to just replace the pin and not tell anyone. Saves you the internet trauma, people will rarely notice, and complain even less frequently.

The Touch Up pin is a pretty key piece of gear for folks who clip it prior to falling.  That climb has sent a number of folks to the ER even with a solid pin in place.

There's still a couple of fairly active Wasatch climbers who like the old iron.  Until they start gummin' their food and not climbing as much, I'd expect there'd be a healthy debate on any pin replacement for routes which have historically maintained pins.

That said, case-by-case basis.  A fair number of routes sporting old iron can be well protected by modern gear.  The few outliers could be debated.

Anyone missin' the pins on Stem the Tide?

I know people to partake in number 4! climbing giggles in big willow, i've pulled out a pin by simply clipping it and the rope drag pulled it out.

Brian in SLC wrote:

The Touch Up pin is a pretty key piece of gear for folks who clip it prior to falling.  That climb has sent a number of folks to the ER even with a solid pin in place.

There's still a couple of fairly active Wasatch climbers who like the old iron.  Until they start gummin' their food and not climbing as much, I'd expect there'd be a healthy debate on any pin replacement for routes which have historically maintained pins.

That said, case-by-case basis.  A fair number of routes sporting old iron can be well protected by modern gear.  The few outliers could be debated.

Anyone missin' the pins on Stem the Tide?

I almost beefed it on said pin last week. Wasn't excited at the prospect... I get why it was replaced, the gear would be hard to place, thin, and questionable. Something needed to go back in for a route of that grade not to become R/X and cause serious problems. I don't get the rationale behind not putting a bolt in though. The distinction between the two is artificial: both are meant as permanent and bomber pieces, both scar the rock, both are unnatural. Is the pin more "trad" than the bolt? What am I missing? A new pin costs more than a new bolt...

Re: Stem the Tide, I doubt anyone would want the iron back. The falls are still significant but at least you know you'll stop on the bolt as opposed to maybe pulling the pin... 

That was me who pulled the pin on Touch Up. Luckily while following my partner to the top of pitch 2. There was clean gear behind that touch-up pin, but it was a tiny offset nut that would be a huge pain in the ass to fiddle in while on lead. Even once you'd get it to set you still have the loop of the wire horizontal pointing to the right, as you climb out to the mantle to the left. I always thought Touch Up needed a bolt instead of a pin like Gordons Direct simply because of the almost guaranteed deck factor if you rip that thing out.

It's a very case by case subjective argument for both cases. For instance:

* Flash Dance had one of its pins rip out in a lead fall by a local climber who then replaced it with a bolt. The result of which doesn't change the climb much if at all. It's still terrifying to lead, but you no longer have to worry about some George Lowe pin placed before half of this forum was born to save your life. Same goes for Stem The Tide, and Gordons Direct.

*On the contrary, there are plenty of routes where we either would never or have never noticed the removal of pins in recent years. Climbs such as Callitwhatyouplease, Japanese Terraces, or Stifflers Mom have all lost pins in the last few years. and no one has much as batted an eye. 

On thing that hasn't been mentioned is that, especially on climbs that require route finding, pins help mark where to go, some FA parties do this even if the pins aren't great.  I'm always a bit bummed when they get pulled...DON'T ANYONE REMOVE MY BASHIES!!!  :)

My thought is that if the pin is bomber, leave it. If it's questionable and a fall could result in injury, then a bolt my be in order. Not all climbs need to be safe though.

Greg Gavin wrote: ...

*On the contrary, there are plenty of routes where we either would never or have never noticed the removal of pins in recent years. Climbs such as Callitwhatyouplease, Japanese Terraces, or Stifflers Mom have all lost pins in the last few years. and no one has much as batted an eye. 

I would disagree that no one has batted an eye. In regards to the pin on Stiffler's, this is the pin that was missing in the corner above the 11a roof where my husband's red TCU pulled. You can see on the TCU that the rock gouged all three lobes leading one to suspect that the crack is crumbly & the pin probably fell out as well. I know that by many standards one could say, "eh you're above the hard part" but as I have seen, sometimes you slip. This is a situation where I'd advocate for a bolt replacement. 

bsmoot wrote: On thing that hasn't been mentioned is that, especially on climbs that require route finding, pins help mark where to go, some FA parties do this even if the pins aren't great.  I'm always a bit bummed when they get pulled...DON'T ANYONE REMOVE MY BASHIES!!!  :)

My thought is that if the pin is bomber, leave it. If it's questionable and a fall could result in injury, then a bolt my be in order. Not all climbs need to be safe though.

+1 for pins as route finding. Tanners is a perfect example of this, a bunch of the Heavenly Slab routes have a sprinkle of pins which save you from ending up 30' above bolts in no-man's land. TP, TDA & Co. are big fans of iron and balance pins for directions and bolts + gear for pro in a pretty damn efficient manner. 

I remember desperately hunting for pins on Valhalla on Mt Olympus and thanking BSmoot when I finally spotted a bashie after placing a string of seriously questionable pieces... I've also been saved from certain doom on the Castle by a Smoot pin but that was more user error than anything else.

Re: Stiffler's pin, sounds like an absolute worst case scenario coming to life. If that pin was pulled someone's going to have to seriously rethink their position (the offer I made years ago to shit down the throat of the pin goblin still stands btw, feel free to come forward). If it fell out it certainly doesn't inspire confidence in the gear, although without seeing the crack around the placement it's hard to tell.  

Ken, I have it on good authority (Rich Gottleib) that one for one piton replacements are ok in the Gunks, like most places.  Many old school folks don't see a pin as offensive as a bolt.  I am also old school, older than most, but a bolt is far more predictable over the long haul.  It is also far easier to remove and camouflage than the scars that pins leave , when some new form of gear makes it unnecessary.  That said, you are likely to run afoul of minds that don't agree, and who needs the grief?  Quietly replace the pin and get on with it!

Rox wrote:

I would disagree that no one has batted an eye. In regards to the pin on Stiffler's, this is the pin that was missing in the corner above the 11a roof where my husband's red TCU pulled. You can see on the TCU that the rock gouged all three lobes leading one to suspect that the crack is crumbly & the pin probably fell out as well. I know that by many standards one could say, "eh you're above the hard part" but as I have seen, sometimes you slip. This is a situation where I'd advocate for a bolt replacement. 

Very true Rox. Sorry for the situation that missing piece has put your family in. I hope your husband is healing well.

I love pitons.  Always will.  I don't nail existing routes, however I shudder in absolute bliss when pounding a pin on a first ascent (unless I'm scared shitless at the moment).  If the pin protects a crux move, then its current condition needs to be considered.  If it is a marker that helps keep the rope out of some gravel gulley, then leave that bad boy alone. .  I would treat all Austri Alpin knifeblades as very suspect, as some have broke while clipping.  This is especially true on Ad Astra Per Aspera at Willard Bay.

Happy Nailing,

TDA

I think it makes sense to replace mank/pulled pins with bolts, especially on cruxy sections. A pin is almost always going to fail before a bolt. We should be looking at the long term. 

No option to glue in the existing pin?

JaredG wrote: No option to glue in the existing pin?

And trap moisture right in there to speed corrosion of the pin? 

Being a glamp-bagger I am always a guest at other peoples crags.  I don't pull or chop.  I will occasionally put quick links on anchors that I am going to rap, but even that can be annoying to the locals who have set up a designated rap anchor for the descent, I just didn't know it was there.

As far as using or not using a pin, like all pro you are personally responsible for your own protection.  I clip the ones that look viable and simply admire the ancient ones.  

My ethic, improve if I can, remove rotten tat, pick up trash, tighten bolts on anchors. Don't trash and don't destroy.