Mountain Project Logo

Climbing riddle

baldclimber · · Ottawa, Ontario, Canada · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 6
Eli Boardman wrote:
Also, I climb (and do nearly everything else) with a knife. I mainly use it for cutting apples and 1 inch webbing for new anchors, but I usually carry one with a built-in marlin spike, which is extremely helpful for untying weighted knots in small cords. See: Spyderco Tusk.

Curious about this knife so I looked it up.  You climb with a knife that sells for $260 ("sale price", lists at $400)? Wow!

Suburban Roadside · · Abovetraffic on Hudson · Joined Apr 2014 · Points: 2,419
baldclimber wrote:

Curious about this knife so I looked it up.  You climb with a knife that sells for $260 ("sale price", lists at $400)? Wow!

Yikes !? thats a hefty price Maybe you missed the link I added On Sale, While they Last, & I'd go with The Serrated model

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
Seth Cohen wrote:

"Heavy on the J" posted the solution I was thinking of on page 1. I know the situation is a bit contrived, but it's supposed to be a fun thought-provoking riddle, not necessarily a real-life situation. And I think the solution is pretty practical, kind of cool, and not that crazy!

Do you mean the idea of cutting 20m of rope? It's a clever solution for a math class word problem, but doesn't make much sense for an actual rappelling situation. First, it's difficult to imagine that you'd have accurate information of the length of both rappels from the top of the cliff but somehow didn't have access to that info when choosing what rope to bring. Then you'd have to have a reliable way to measure the right length to cut off your rope - cut too little, and your first rap won't make it to the anchors (leaving you with other solutions for making the rap work, which you can just use in the first place) - cut too much, and your second single strand rap won't make it to the ground (leaving you pretty fucked on this free-hanging non-down-climbable cliff face). Even if you're ok with not keeping your rope after reaching the ground, cutting it really limits your options in your current situation. 

If you're at the top of the cliff with this information about the rap anchors, it would make most sense to me to descend by another route. Even if there is no walk-off, presumably you got up there by some route that was either climbable, or took gear, or most likely both - leave gear for rap anchors.

More likely is a situation where you thought your rope would make it, and it comes up short - a good solution here is as others have mentioned, fix the rope so that one end reaches the next rap station (easy to lower first climber, then you know exactly the length you need to make it to the next anchor), then rap single strand with a biner block. As you reach the end of the rope, attach everything you've got to make a pull cord that will reach the next anchor to pull the rope down. 10 meters should be easy using cordelettes, slings, gear, clothing, backpacks, etc. that you have on you.

I would hope the perils of the "attach a heavy backpack idea" are obvious, but in case the multiple "ooh, great idea!" posts are not in jest: 1. pack can get stuck. 2. pack can injure or kill someone below. 3. pack will likely sail right by you. The odds that, being tied into a bolted anchor with limited mobility, the pack will be heavy enough to pull cleanly, and land right in your outstretched arms without hurting anyone, are pretty slim. Seems a big risk to lose your only rope on a cliff with no holds or gear options.

Thanks for the fun thought experiment!
Andrew Hess · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Aug 2017 · Points: 0

You say I can leave equipment on the wall? Fix the rope to the anchor and single-line rappel to the ground.

Next!

Marc801 C · · Sandy, Utah · Joined Feb 2014 · Points: 65
ViperScale . wrote:

Only if it is slab. Most rappels involve bulges / overhangs...

You still walk backwards down those.

...and even if they aren't I tend to rappel by more of a hopping method and letting lots of slack out to drop down 10-15ft or so per "bounce". Guess that makes sense though if you are only getting static elongation during rappel because when I am rappelling I am kinda taking multi freefall drops as I go down which causes alot of stretch in the rope.

That's not how to rappel. You're doing it wrong. Maybe you were taught incorrectly and never bothered to find out the right way. 

If you ever do something alpine, you might want to warn your partners that you're really into stress-testing the rap anchors.
Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Marc801 C wrote: You still walk backwards down those.

That's not how to rappel. You're doing it wrong. Maybe you were taught incorrectly and never bothered to find out the right way. 

If you ever do something alpine, you might want to warn your partners that you're really into stress-testing the rap anchors.

Guess I didn't realize everyone only rappelled down perfectly flat walls and never did full suspended hangs or over walls that stuck out more than 4ft and you could always just walk down the wall. I don't do alpine and would never rappel off something I didn't trust to be able to sustain a climbing fall (well besides that one time but we won't go into that) so never really worried about rap anchors breaking (well maybe a few rusty ones but always find ways to back them up on chicken heads or other things). 

Guess I do maybe put extra stress on the rope while rappelling so maybe that is why I have been able to rappel down 120-130ft pitches on a single 60m because I am taking mini falls sorta as I go down. Rappelling is just about going down a line attached to the anchor so didn't realize you were breaking the law if you did it a different way. Heck I had a friend who liked to rappel with the rope around his back so he was going down face first unlike most.

Can you give me a link to the international instructions for the way you have to rappel? (we are talking about doing all of this outdoors right? maybe i misread something and this is all taking place in a gym and you have to rappel by their rules?)
Robin Westman · · Minneapolis, MN · Joined May 2018 · Points: 56

Ghost knot at the top then rap down to the bolts. Then pull your rope and do it again

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
ViperScale . wrote:

Guess I didn't realize everyone only rappelled down perfectly flat walls and never did full suspended hangs or over walls that stuck out more than 4ft and you could always just walk down the wall. I don't do alpine and would never rappel off something I didn't trust to be able to sustain a climbing fall (well besides that one time but we won't go into that) so never really worried about rap anchors breaking (well maybe a few rusty ones but always find ways to back them up on chicken heads or other things). 

Guess I do maybe put extra stress on the rope while rappelling so maybe that is why I have been able to rappel down 120-130ft pitches on a single 60m because I am taking mini falls sorta as I go down. Rappelling is just about going down a line attached to the anchor so didn't realize you were breaking the law if you did it a different way. Heck I had a friend who liked to rappel with the rope around his back so he was going down face first unlike most.

Can you give me a link to the international instructions for the way you have to rappel? (we are talking about doing all of this outdoors right? maybe i misread something and this is all taking place in a gym and you have to rappel by their rules?)

Marc is right, you're doing it wrong. Yes, you can do things incorrectly or unsafely without breaking any laws. Even if you ultimately decide to keep doing it your way, you're missing an opportunity to learn something here by responding with vitriol instead of questions. 

Bouncing, or "taking mini falls" as you rap greatly increases the forces on your anchor. That doesn't always matter, but the day it does will be too late for you to learn from. It also increases the risk of rope abrasion or cutting, and of pulling down rocks either onto someone below you or onto your own head. All for no benefit other than that you "feel like it".  A bouncy rappel is always, to me, a sure sign of an inexperienced climber. And yes, you can absolutely rappel down any terrain with a slow, smooth, controlled rappel. It's a skill you should learn. 

Your face-first friend is doing it wrong too. 
Alex R · · Golden · Joined May 2015 · Points: 228
Seth Cohen wrote: I've heard some wacky silly answers to this riddle (like de-sheathing the rope and separating the inner strands), but there's one answer that's logical, safe, and requires nothing ridiculous. It's not a trick question. But feel free to share any ridiculous answers you can think of!

Why is using the core strands "wacky silly"? Ropes have about 8-10 core strands (couldn't find a source so I image searched for core shots and counted). So a 6m length of rope would could be deconstructed into at least 54m of pull chord counting the sheath. Now you can single strand rap 54m with a biner block, not once or twice, but as many times as need be. The only arguments I can think of for not doing it this way are that the knotted strands could get caught on featured low angle rock, which would mean down climbing or placing intermediate pro would be an option, or this solution makes the neat math solution to the riddle look silly so its forbidden.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Em Cos wrote:

Marc is right, you're doing it wrong. Yes, you can do things incorrectly or unsafely without breaking any laws. Even if you ultimately decide to keep doing it your way, you're missing an opportunity to learn something here by responding with vitriol instead of questions. 

Bouncing, or "taking mini falls" as you rap greatly increases the forces on your anchor. That doesn't always matter, but the day it does will be too late for you to learn from. It also increases the risk of rope abrasion or cutting, and of pulling down rocks either onto someone below you or onto your own head. All for no benefit other than that you "feel like it".  A bouncy rappel is always, to me, a sure sign of an inexperienced climber. And yes, you can absolutely rappel down any terrain with a slow, smooth, controlled rappel. It's a skill you should learn. 

Your face-first friend is doing it wrong too. 

I have been doing this for a long time I used to always go slow, easy, and smooth when I was new to doing it. Than I got experience and started making it funner and faster. I am not stupid and not going to do a fast rappel when the rope goes over a questionable edge.

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5
ViperScale . wrote:

I have been doing this for a long time I used to always go slow, easy, and smooth when I was new to doing it. Than I got experience and started making it funner and faster. I am not stupid and not going to do a fast rappel when the rope goes over a questionable edge.

Well, I suppose going forward I won't assume inexperience. It could also be a sign of someone who refuses to learn from experience, or who prioritizes "funner and faster" over safety. Thank you, I learned something new today. 

Grandpa Dave · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Aug 2016 · Points: 5
Em Cos wrote:

Your face-first friend is doing it wrong too. 

Well, not necessarily. That's a method used by military, usually rope in one hand, weapon in the other, drawn and ready to fire.

Eli Boardman · · Boulder, CO · Joined Jun 2016 · Points: 742
baldclimber wrote:

Curious about this knife so I looked it up.  You climb with a knife that sells for $260 ("sale price", lists at $400)? Wow!

Suburban Roadside wrote: Yikes !? thats a hefty price Maybe you missed the link I added On Sale, While they Last, & I'd go with The Serrated model
We climb with trad racks that sell for $1200+...just saying.

Knife collecting is one of my main pursuits. I strongly don't recommend Cold Steel. The Spyderco Tusk (my climbing knife) is good for that limited purpose, but a Manix or PM2 is best for general use (and cheaper).
baldclimber · · Ottawa, Ontario, Canada · Joined Jul 2015 · Points: 6
Eli Boardman wrote: We climb with trad racks that sell for $1200+...just saying.

Knife collecting is one of my main pursuits. I strongly don't recommend Cold Steel. The Spyderco Tusk (my climbing knife) is good for that limited purpose, but a Manix or PM2 is best for general use (and cheaper).

That Tusk knife costs more than any single piece of gear in my very extensive rack.  Just saying :)

Slartibartfast · · New York · Joined Jun 2013 · Points: 0
Seth Cohen wrote:

"Heavy on the J" posted the solution I was thinking of on page 1. I know the situation is a bit contrived, but it's supposed to be a fun thought-provoking riddle, not necessarily a real-life situation. And I think the solution is pretty practical, kind of cool, and not that crazy!

Fair enough, I give it good marks as a riddle. And if I someday find myself without a walk off, at the top of a multi-pitch rap of known, very specific height, with a rope and harness and knife but without so much as my sport rack (minimum 12 draws and a cordelette) to extend with, I now know what to do.

Most importantly, we all learned not to let Viper borrow our gear.
Calvin Lee · · Bristol, NH · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 15

Why, if I know the exact length of each rappel, did I not bring a second rope? :P

Smartass comment aside, this is a fun little riddle. Sounds like just the right setup for the super sketchy sheepshank rappel, where you fix the line, tie a sheepshank, cut the correct strand (there's only one correct one), rap, then wiggle it free. You could do a bunch of rappels and only lose 5-10ft of rope each time. Just don't bounce on the rappel...

Max Manson · · Superior, CO and Stanford, CA · Joined Feb 2017 · Points: 491

Easy. Pull one end of the rope through the anchor until it just reaches the next anchor. So you have 40m on one side and 20m on the other. Take the longer side and tie a knot 20m from the top anchor, then attach the end of the short (20m) side to that knot. So pretty much the 20m side is attached halfway down the 40m side. Following along? Now you rap on the both sides, pass the knot, and finish the rap to the mid way anchor. Next, you fix the end of the long side to the mid way anchor. Ascend the long side until you reach the knot and attach yourself to said knot. Here's the fun part. Take the end of the 20m side off of the knot, that you are now attached to. Let go of the 20m side and take the ride! As you fall, the 20m side will pull through the top anchor and you will eventually be caught by the end that you fixed to the mid way anchor. Now that you are hanging 20m below the mid way anchor (hopefully not with a broken back from the whiplash) and the rest of the rope is hanging below you, you can rap to the ground. The ONLY issue is that you have to leave your rope behind. Oh yeah, and maybe something about Factor 2. Ya,ya, you said  "No whips necessary", but...

Andrew Steavpack · · Castle Pines, CO · Joined Mar 2017 · Points: 105

I would do it in a way that would not require the rope to be cut and seems the most obvious and reasonable/realistic to me. I would fix the rope to the first rappel anchor and rappel 40 meters to the next rap station, then I would pull up the hanging end of the rope and fix it to the next rap station. From here my partner would untie the rope from the top station and drop it down to me to finish the second rappel. I would then find another partner and rope to climb the second pitch of the route. First pitch could be ascended by fixed rope and second would be climbed. Only downside is that your partner is stuck at the top for a while but hopefully they have a good ledge to relax on.

Easier option is to just leave the partner since leaving gear was allowed. Leaves them with a more difficult riddle to solve. Best option I can see for the partner is to tie into the 40m mark while unfixing the rope and ride the factor 2.

Anonymous · · Unknown Hometown · Joined unknown · Points: 0
Andrew Steavpack wrote: I would do it in a way that would not require the rope to be cut and seems the most obvious and reasonable/realistic to me. I would fix the rope to the first rappel anchor and rappel 40 meters to the next rap station, then I would tie pull up the hanging end of the rope and fix it to the next rap station. From here my partner would untie the rope from the top station and drop it down to me to finish the second rappel. I would then find another partner and rope to climb the second pitch of the route. First pitch could be ascended by fixed rope and second would be climbed. Only downside is that your partner is stuck at the top for a while but hopefully they have a good ledge to relax on. 

You can't climb back up it isn't really a climbing route cause they said there was nowhere to place gear / bolts. So it is either free solo up or there is a route somewhere up (I know this is where none of this makes sense). They said you could leave whatever you want though... so I kinda like this method single rappel down and than have your partner drop the rope down to you and single rope down to the base of the climb and leave your rope + climbing partner and take off.

C Limenski · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Mar 2016 · Points: 15

The best answer is on the first page.

Lower your partner to the midpoint anchors
Fix the rope with a biner block
Single strand rappel
On the way down clip and tie everything you have to the end, making a pull cord
Rinse
Repeat

Edited for clarity

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

General Climbing
Post a Reply to "Climbing riddle"

Log In to Reply
Welcome

Join the Community! It's FREE

Already have an account? Login to close this notice.