"It was the best of times, it was the worst of times"

I've lived in the Upper Valley for while, and from what I've seen, Dartmouth doesn't go out of it's way to make the locals like them.  And, this is pretty good example of that.

I bet Jim Kenyon, who's a stir-the- pot columnist for the Valley News would like to hear about this.  He seems to enjoy pointing out bad behavior by the powerful.

A question: where is the Dartmouth/ US Forest Service boundary located?  Any idea how far down the cliff band?

Thanks,

Ed "Ann Coulter is a Dartmouth graduate...." E  

Robert Hall wrote:

   
                                               
                        don'tchuffonme  Wrote "   Ken Nichols is alive and well and thriving in Dartmouth"  Actually, I think Ken would not have been this "messy".  (The 1/4 inch buttonhead can [still] be removed easily without any special equipment.)  At the very minimal, the 3/8 inch bolts could have been chopped with a hammer and chisel and then covered with epoxy-and-local-sand mixture.

I've seen plenty of Ken's work, and he has never covered a scar with epoxy and sand.  Right about the regular bolts.he would have chopped them clean off, but the glue In looks exactly like what he's left behind around here in western Mass

It's sad to see this happening in my back yard.  Dartmouth is far too big to even care what locals think.  But if someone at Dartmouth took an interest, this would be changed fast.  

Dartmouth grad student here - I just talked with CLyme, and I have sent out a few emails to people in the outdoor programs office and am hoping I will be able to get some face to face meetings with the people who made the decision.

As a grad student I am not involved with the DMC at all, but I do know some undergrads who are. I will talk with them, and maybe if there is more of a push from students it could help. 

Andrew Peterson wrote: Dartmouth grad student here - I just talked with CLyme, and I have sent out a few emails to people in the outdoor programs office and am hoping I will be able to get some face to face meetings with the people who made the decision.

As a grad student I am not involved with the DMC at all, but I do know some undergrads who are. I will talk with them, and maybe if there is more of a push from students it could help. 

I  appreciate all you try to do.  John Joline was my only connection with Dartmouth climbing, but he is not around any more.

incredible. when town of Lyme had  thought the cliff was on their property the chief of police talked to me about removeing my routes. I had  offered and been accepted to take care of the project as most of the routes were mine. I would have done a professional job.  I sincerely regret that Dartmouth did not contact me when it was determined that Dartmouth in fact owned the cliff. .  in most cases all you had to do was remove the nut and hanger and then tap the stud into the hole. the so called climbers that did this lousy work  should be publicly shamed INMOP. many of those climbs were ground up efforts put up in good style. the rap bolted climbs were carefully thought out masterpieces.  Such a shame.  

East coast guides make more money with no bolts, it's a fact.  I'll admit I know nothing about this situation besides what has been said here but I do know from the pics that , like Ward said, it looks like a crazy person did that job. public shame is well deserved.

Dartmouth, never was even close to Harvard or Yale. Might as well be a state school. That or ivy league for losers?

Nick Goldsmith wrote: incredible. when town of Lyme had  thought the cliff was on their property the chief of police talked to me about removeing my routes. I had  offered and been accepted to take care of the project as most of the routes were mine. I would have done a professional job.  I sincerely regret that Dartmouth did not contact me when it was determined that Dartmouth in fact owned the cliff. .  in most cases all you had to do was remove the nut and hanger and then tap the stud into the hole. the so called climbers that did this lousy work  should be publicly shamed INMOP. many of those climbs were ground up efforts put up in good style. the rap bolted climbs were carefully thought out masterpieces.  Such a shame.  

Well Nick.  Maybe you could still clean up the mess.  Wouldn't hurt to contact the DOC ...

I would also offer a hand if you can get their attention.

Re' Ward Smith's comment on my comment: I didn't mean to imply Ken would have covered up the "chop" or the hole; but (as pointed out by Ward) he would have at least made a clean chop of the bolt and never leave anything as ugly as the photo(s) shown.   I was sort of hinting that climbers could, relatively easily, still remove the 1/4 inch shown, and could chop cleanly (and epoxy over the remainder) the horrible 3/8 inch shown nearly beaten out of its hole.

Robert Hall wrote: Re' Ward Smith's comment on my comment: I didn't mean to imply Ken would have covered up the "chop" or the hole; but (as pointed out by Ward) he would have at least made a clean chop of the bolt and never leave anything as ugly as the photo(s) shown.   I was sort of hinting that climbers could, relatively easily, still remove the 1/4 inch shown, and could chop cleanly (and epoxy over the remainder) the horrible 3/8 inch shown nearly beaten out of its hole.

He has done exactly what the pics show. So have his disciples.

 Seems to me it is irrelevant what Nichols has done.

If this is all true and the land is Dartmouths. It seems that a community cleaning of the bolts and rebooting with permission could probably be done. And given the number of people who seem interested in such an effort might
Even be able to raise the money for most of the equipment. This is probably a naive view, but is seems to me it might be possible especially if we can get some alumn or someone from the DMC involved

Christopher Woodall wrote:  Seems to me it is irrelevant what Nichols has done.

If this is all true and the land is Dartmouths. It seems that a community cleaning of the bolts and rebooting with permission could probably be done. And given the number of people who seem interested in such an effort might
Even be able to raise the money for most of the equipment. This is probably a naive view, but is seems to me it might be possible especially if we can get some alumn or someone from the DMC involved

This makes a lot of sense. Out of the hundreds of bolts, if these photos represent the extent of the problem, would be good to figure out together.

Why even bother with that old button head? Part of an old super brave route from the 80,s that no one would  climb any ways  without  replacing the old bolts and pins.. these guys  that did this are prime losers...

Just moved to town... sux to be reading this. I have the tools and technique to remove glue-ins and plenty of time and ... plenty of SS bolts to replace if DC ever wants to go that route...

 I feel the best move right now is to simply lay low and see what happens on the land owners part.

I went and investigated a bit yesterday. aside from the 4  mangled bolts already pictured I did not get shots of   the other mangled bolts as top access at Holts is extreemly difficult.  We apparently rapped in on the same tree anchors as previous posters. My observation is that they did a very thorough job eraseing the 25 amazeing climbs that existed here.  For the most part they  did a decent job. They only completely mangled the bolts they could not get out easily. apparently about 6 to 12 mangled out of 250ish.  that being said we were able to observe with binoculers several more mangled bolts and some glue ins that were left intact includeing a mangled glue in with a bail biner on it.  DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THESE BOLTS!  all of these climbs are X Rated without our bolts intact and the  climbs with a few glue ins will possibly suck you in to a very serious situation.  If you do manage to get into the tree ledge at the top of hall Of Mirrors be aware that there are no longer any  mid point anchors. A 70m will get you down from the one blue rope that extends to the very edge of the cliff but any anchors comfortably up above the very edge of the cliff may not reach with a single 70m.

One of The really sad aspects of the Holts/ Dartmouth misadventure is that the climbs were all labled as sport climbs and Sport climbing was labled as bad.  Ironicly there were quite a few stellar traditional ground up mixed  climbs that got the chop along with all the great sport climbs.   I have a hard time pictureing any self respecting trad climber chopping for money a climb that was established ground up in good style. 
 Good Country For Old Men was a great  40m 5.7  later shortened to 30m by installing a bolted top anchor that allowed you to skip 10m of grassy mossy RX crap to the oak tree.  I bolted this rope solo ground up a few days before my 50th birthday. None of us had ventured anywhere up on this section of the cliff so this was a grand adventure in the thick of black fly and tick season.  It ended up with one bolt that I would not have placed  had I top roped the climb before bolting. the bolt was however not offensive enough for me to seriously consider removeing it.  Keep in mind that on FA's in the North East it is quite dirty, loose and much, much more scary than the climb is when you get to experience it after a nice wire brushing and some shiny new hardware to clip. Curtis Cote follows Good Country For old Men 5.7 Now Chopped.

Mad Man 5.10c was an absolute 5 star classic. the upper 2 pitched nothing special but the 35m 1st pitch was amazeing. Ground up with zero inspection a good mix of trad and bolts with some very exiting moves. I took a pretty big and exciting screamer up there with the drill and FA kit hanging off my ass when a bird beak blew. My belayer declared that I was a Mad Man.  Isa on the 2nd ascent of Mad Man 5.10c Climber on Mad Man. it goes up that right faceing corner/ flake to super thin sporty face climbing.  I wonder if the choppers climbed it before they chopped it? I wonder if they had a thought of what it must have felt like to lead that pitch with no fixed  hardware to aim for? What it must have felt like  when it was dirty as heck and nothing to clip. I was always pretty scared leading this thing but would tell myself, Dude, you already did that move when it was covered in lichen, there was no bolt to clip after the move and you had a 20lb drill hanging off your ass.

 Women are Smarter 5.7 was a  great very obscure and hard to find moderate that I talked 76 year old Jed into holding my rope on the FA. Isa was a wee bit smarter than Jed and figured it was going to be a heinous adventure. It was about 90 degress out and prime black fly  and tick season.  First we led Good Country and then scrambled up the grass and moss X gully to the traverse tree  ledge. a nasty move or two across the gully climbers left of Two Boys (now sports a fixed rope) and we found this mixed gem now chopped. I led it and drilled it  ground up. Jed follows the FA of Women are Smarter 5.7  way to go boys. chop a 76 year old senior citizens ground up FA.  Good Job.

We Got The Funk 5.10+ 85m is another 3 star classic. No preview , ground up. I always felt the start was over bolted and had toyed with the idea of  cleaning it up. It was so crumbly and dirty for the first 25ft on the FA that I resorted to the drill a bit faster than I would have liked. Did not feel like the little red BD TCU thingy would hold anything real in that sandy crumbly  stuff at the start. once it got cleaned up  and we got it wired I toyed with the idea of removeing the 1st two bolts. Anyways the bolts higher on the climb were critical. especially on P2 now chopped..   The FA of P2 of We Got The Funk. this was a bit sporty with all the FA crap hanging off the butt and the fridgid November temps.Jim was a trooper on the belay while I elvis legged away up there.  .    Jim did a great job freeing the pitch.  Jim on the FFA

Krampus 5.10a. 35m super cool 4 star ground up mixed climb. I am  really interested if the Choppers climbed this before chopping it??? possibly a tiny bit over bolted at the start but I could have easily changed that. The bolts in the middle quite important though as was the top anchors.. This was one of my favorites. steep and a great variety of climbing. Thin slab, steep face, cool thought provokeing overlap and a nice steep finger crack at the top.  That was very exciteing to equip ground up. The upper half of the pitch was all trad and super fun.  It was super sketchy standing on the licheny sloping ledge way above my last piece with no hand holds trying to pull the drill up on a tag line to drill the top anchors. The FFA of  Krampus 10a. now Chopped. these are just a few  of the climbs that were destroyed. 

One of the best 5.10 pitches in the North East. Mad Woman 5.10c sport. Now Chopped.one of my top 5 sport route creations now chopped.  

The pumpy startsuper intricate face climbing up high.Gunning it for the chains.

Ah man, these routes look like absolute gold Nick. It is a real bummer for the community and especially you, who put so much effort and money into finding, cleaning, climbing and equipping these routes so that they were reasonably safe for competent climbers. It sounds like you did a good job riding that line keeping climbs safe, but not overbolting. Forcing climbers to use skill and their gear to get up these climbs. It is a style I appreciate a lot (and seems to be less frequent in the north east, though growing more frequent with new development).