Two perma draws added to Hellboy (Ozone) - Request to have them removed

I was at Ozone last Tuesday, then again today. At some point between then, some one added two perma draws through the crux of Hellboy.

So, I’m arguing that some one has placed two perma draws on route, because they were not strong enough to climb it placing their own gear. Also, I feel said perma draws take away from the climbing itself. Maybe I’m completely wrong. But after talking with my climbing partners, I decided that it was best to see what the rest of the PNW regulars thought before removing them on my own.

Argue away.

• warning - I don't know the area, route or local ethics in question*
  
  but sounds like some good booty

You are asking for permission, you should instead ask for forgiveness. 

On principle, removing the draws and returning them to their owner would be impeccable stewardship.

But I don't know the area and personally would defer to local judgment.

Welcome to the age of gym climbers.

I don't understand why these questions don't pry at me when I see a permadraw. Why is it so bothersome? Is someone else's preference toward some bolted (not traditional) route really such a big deal? Booty 'em. This isn't about bolts on a splitter. I think you did right by clipping your own fall protection to those bolts. You must be stronger. I wish I could climb all over cliffs without having to haul gear and rope around. Clip the cabiners and climb higher. The end goal is not to have clipped some rope into a cabiner over n over again. That's just part of surviving a fall. Just climb, and do what you've gotta do to avoid splatting.

Tim Sipe wrote: 
 I would also note that who ever felt the need to place perma draws, did not feel the need to replace the actual bolt they are clipped to. Which I feel would’ve been more important.

Yeah.  Are the bolts in good shape?  Also who cares?  Unless local ethic is no fixed gear (I'm also curious your definition of permadraws), then let it go.  

PNW climbers seem to often mistake keeping climbing here ten years behind the times with good ethics. Maybe when someone replaces the bolt, they can replace the hanger with two links of chain too circa Rocky Butt 1991?

John Wilder wrote:In recent years, it's becoming more common to add one or two permanent draws to certain routes to make cleaning the route easier/safer when lowering.

This.  My understanding is permadraws are not about making the climbing easier, but making the cleaning easier/safer.  Big overhangs can make snagging the draws almost impossible without risking a big swing into something nasty or taking an extra 20-30 minutes to get off the route.  I'd much rather see a few permadraws to allow people to efficiently get off the climb rather than everyone having to wait for a mini-epic to clean the route.  I'd rather see a permadraw than a normal draw left on the hanger that may or may not still be structurally sound.

Also, all the pro climbers send with pre-hung draws so I'd take that as a sign that clipping the draw to the bolt on the send doesn't really add or detract from the send.  Certainly not like pre-placed trad gear anyway.

Ascetically speaking it could be a whole different ball game.  Are they the only permadraws on the cliff or is it common?  Are the majority of people almost all climbers or is this a mostly a place for hikers and bird watchers where access issues can be tricky?

Just things to think about.

The OP mentions that the permas were added at the crux.  I have no clue where that is, but if it's low in the roof or just below it it certainly seems these might have been added to aid in cleaning.  

I also never understand why a few permas on high traffic route are such an eyesore to folks - there are bolts and hangers in the rock for god's sake. 

These are most definitely not the only permadraws on the wall as there are 3 on the route directly to the left (~10 feet) away and those are specifically there to make cleaning easier. ( mountainproject.com/route/1…)

I would assume that these were added to Hellboy for the same reason.

Tim, are you asking for all permadraws to be removed at Mordor? Or just Hellboy?

IMO (as a local), clipping two permadraws does not really detract from the overall quality of this or any route. Leave them be unless they are unsafe.

I am a local. I helped put up routes and also put up my own routes there starting in 2004. Bryan Smith, you will see my name on the FAs in the paper guides and on this site. That established, I'll try to be brief and not make anything personal, especially because I appreciate you being public about your thought process and not doing anything sneaky like stealing someone's property (Yes, Paul Hutton, taking permadraws is stealing unless they are obviously abandoned and dangerously worn. please keep soloing in Idaho, far from here). Thanks for checking in with the community.

It seems well established that climbing routes 5-12 is often done with permadraws in place. Open any magazine, look at the photos on this site. You've been to Smith, you've seen for yourself. There is no longer a debate on this issue. We also all agree hanging your own draw each time is physically harder and often psychologically harder to lead without the next draw hanging. No debate there, either. If you want to stop at each clipping stance on Hellboy and simulate hanging your own draw before you clip the permadraw, go for it. Then again, since you say the stances are "easy" it seems like that would be pointless?

I would love to see Ozone and the Pacific Northwest get over this pinkpoint/redpoint issue and realize that "hard' sport has nothing to do with hanging draws. it is about pushing limits via climbing movement, and doing so safely and conveniently. At Ozone, the bolts/draws are only visible to climbers and the very random lost hiker - unlike Smith or many other crags that are frequented by non-climbers. So the "visual/ aesthetic" issue is even less relevant there.

Finally, someone donated 2 draws from their own pocket to Hellboy. It's not a cheap habit. Ozone has been around almost 15 years now, and I don't see permadraws on every sport route. So I don't think this is a trend to nip in the bud. I would be more concerned if every 5-10 was growing permadraws. Get back to us if that happens!  

In conclusion, please accept that a 5-12 route like Hellboy might sprout permadraws and just leave them alone. You sent it already, good job, now go to Broughton and start sending all those 5-12s that don't have permadraws and get the experience you want.  Or go next door to drop zone and get scared leading the 5-9s and 5-10s groundup and onsight, if you just want to make the actual climbing harder by effing around with gear.

All solid points! I’m definitely not saying my views on the ethics behind climbing/bolting is right. I’m the first to admit having a bit of an old school view. Less bolts, less fixed gear, bolder climbing.

Yes, the perma draws aid in cleaning. But they also have nylon slings, meaning if they are left past summer, they will see a lot of weathering, particularly considering that one of the two draws sits directly on the face above the roof. Maybe they will be taken down at end of season? Idk. Maybe the FA group is back doing work? Idk. I’ve had no luck finding info on why/who put these up. So I’m left only with my take on the scenario.

Again, I’d like to make it clear, this is all strictly my opinion on this stuff. Not right. Not wrong. But ethics in the new age of climbers are hard to come by. So here I am, trying to start some discussion. 

Of course perma draws have their place in climbing, no doubt about it. But do we need them everywhere? Do we need them on easier climbing? Do we need them before we replace the bolts they hang on? Who’s job is it to maintain said draws as they burn out and become a safety hazard? That’s what this discussion, I was hoping, would help PNW local climbers talk about. 

I’ll end saying ethics are complicated, And my views are my views. If the perma draws stay, whatever. If they are taken down, great! But I’d personally like to see them go. And this is my request. Feel free to say no. But it’s a shame to watch the local crags turned into outdoor gyms. 

I apologize, I forgot Hellboy is not 5-12. I hear you on all the larger issues. I also think it's good you posted this here to give that person a chance to explain their decision (if they visit this site). Putting fixed draws on a route is a very strong move. especially outside of areas where the ethic is to leave fixed draws (like aggro gully or picnic lunch wall at smith, or steep limestone areas that are just caves with all fixed draws) I would never want to see every 5-11 and 5-12 at ozone sprout fixed draws. Not because it "makes the climb easier" but because it probably would lead to situations where nylon draws get left hanging and become hazards to people trying to lead. And even if they weren't nylon, there does seem to be something "wrong" about leaving fixed draws on every bolt. Part of what makes "outside' a different experience than the gym is that the draws aren't hanging and you have to figure out the stance and climb without knowing there is always a draw to grab if you get scared. So it is a slippery slope, and I hope it stops with those two on Hellboy. But that said, thanks for posting here instead of just stealing them. And let's be clear that "Hellboy" is just a 2 bolt variation off of a 10a, Stepchild. It barely warrants having its own name. Is somebody really "projecting" 15 feet of 5-11 on top of a 10a? Call me elitist, but fixed draws usually go on something  bit harder and longer than a boulder problem variation....usually they belong on a high first bolt where you otherwise need a stick clip due to a bad landing, or if it' a world class test-piece like Churning 13a at smith where a line of people lead all day and the fixed draws help everyone get a turn faster...not a random 5--11 variation at ozone...man the more I type, the more I start to agree with Tim they should probably be removed if a good explanation doesn't surface soon...

John Wilder wrote: 
Imho, any permanent draws should be climb tech or similar quality installation. Leaving nylon on a wall is just irresponsible.

I'm more worried by aluminum biners than nylon draws.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

I'm more worried by aluminum biners than nylon draws.

Neither are appropriate to leave for "perma-draws". If someone is working the route and will actually pull them in a couple months that's fine (which rarely happens), but if it's going up permanently it should all be steel IMO.  

Tim are these draws below the roof? Is it normal to clean on the lower? 

bryans wrote: Is somebody really "projecting" 15 feet of 5-11 on top of a 10a? Call me elitist, but fixed draws usually go on something  bit harder and longer than a boulder problem variation"

Yes that's elitist. I'll never understand why we have different "rules" for what is considered hard climbing and what is considered easy climbing by the people who climb hard. Maybe 11a is really hard for whoever put those draws up there. Why should the 10a climber have to endure a sketchy, for them, hanging of a draw when the 12a climber gets to enjoy perma draws on what is hard for them.

Also maybe whoever hung them is just coming back in a few days and has no intention of leaving them there.

However, I'm generally anti perma draw so if they linger get rid of them. But then again I'm about as far away from PNW as you can get. So who cares what I think.... :)

Edit: OK, so my speculation is way off. But the elitist part is still pertinent. ;)

woah woah, I'm the one who put the perma draws there. They are: http://www.trango.com/p-206-gym-quickdraw.aspx

I wanted to add perma draws to help with cleaning the route. Every other overhung route on that wall has some. I didn't have any climb tech permas on hand so I put those up till I can get an order in.

I'm in the process of rebolting The Humbling which is right next to it. I was going to take a look at the other routes on the wall and rebolt wherever it's needed.

I'm not going to dive into all the other topics that were brought up but if you want to talk to me about this feel free to message me directly.

Re: elitism - I hung on a 10b at ozone this weekend, pumped at a clip. But would not want a fixed draw there just because it was hard for me, that time, that day. I do think there should be a reason for a fixed draw other than one person found the clip hard.

Jason, your "lowering" reasoning checks out. Seems reasonable. And Tim's original post shows why adding fixed draws is a strong move that ought to have well-thought justification.  Also, when you say you're re-bolting The Humbling, is that because it had the same inappropriate lag bolts as the Crumbling had? (While you're at it, I wouldn't complain if the first two bolts got moved slightly, I remember feeling like there was ground fall potential involved, ha ha, but check with the FA party first of course) If so, thanks a bunch. 

Dammit Portland! Just read this to the end. With all the build up. AND WHAT??? Y'all are settling this peacefully without chopping eachother's routes, slashing tires and a fist fight in the parking lot??