BD / Joe Kinder / ???

Nate, I grew up a punk kid, listening to Fugazi, Dead Kennedys, PIL, etc, and did what I supposed punk kids were supposed to do. This did not involve the internet (as there really was none), and was mostly trying to score acid and breaking beer bottles in back alleys.  At some point however, we just kind of grew up. I guess that Joe did not?

the schmuck wrote: Nate, I grew up a punk kid, listening to Fugazi, Dead Kennedys, PIL, etc, and did what I supposed punk kids were supposed to do. This did not involve the internet (as there really was none), and was mostly trying to score acid and breaking beer bottles in back alleys.  At some point however, we just kind of grew up. I guess that Joe did not?

(Edited out nonsensical sentence. I like Fugazi. They seemed to be into supporting women. I may be wrong. I'm wrong often. I can learn from my mistakes. Perhaps I should not like Fugazi?)

Nate posited that punching bullies today would not garner the same positive reaction from the community that he experienced back in the day.  I referenced a contemporary example that contradicted his supposition.

Nate Tastic wrote: I realize this may sound weird to some people and I don't feel like breaking the whole thing down for you all (got to get off this damn thing; so read into it yourself) but, I can't help but wonder if Joe was secretly in "love" with Sasha.

So not really a middle aged dude, and not really a "punk skater kid," but more like a love struck pre-pubescent?

Dear Joe Kinder,

You played yourself.

Long Ranger wrote:

I think Fugazi was a pretty positive influence on to treat women like shit. Personally. 

I think you gravely misunderstood that song and Ian MacKaye.

Ryan and Jesse Morse-Brady wrote:

I think you gravely misunderstood that song and Ian MacKaye.

I believe you might be missing the sarcasm.

Señor Arroz wrote:

How do you equate losing a sponsorship with his life being over? Most of us have been fired from a job at one point or another. Our lives weren't over. I'm sure Joe will learn from this and prosper.

Well, as far as I can tell, life as he knows it has revolved around traveling and being a professional climber.  He doesn't have another job that I know of.  So, yeah, his "life" isn't over, but it's hard to maintain when your sources of income, or two main sources of income have been removed.  Kind of like when people can't travel or go on vacation or spend money on material things that they want or even need, when they're on unemployment.  So, yeah, it isn't over, but it's drastically changed.  I'm not arguing that it shouldn't have happened- I'd probably need to see every offense and also know what was behind all of it to have an opinion one way or the other.

John Wilder wrote:

No, it shows that there are real consequences for harassing and bullying someone- as there should be. 

I'm not trying to say there shouldn't be consequences, or even what those consequences would be.  I'm saying that 15 or even as little as 6 or 7 years ago, the consequences wouldn't have been this bad.  There is little if any tolerance for offering cross words, or bullying, or badgering, or anything of that nature in today's world- especially if it's seemingly unprovoked (and who knows if it was or wasn't) in today's society, and particularly in the relatively small world of the pro climbing community.  As an example: take the brash nature of Bachar and his outspoken stances and harsh words- he was lauded by many BITD for his nature.  That shit wouldn't fly today.  That's all I meant.  Conforming to the nicer, less confrontational nature that seems to be the status quo.  And I'm not implying that's a bad thing.

don'tchuffonme wrote:

Well, as far as I can tell, life as he knows it has revolved around traveling and being a professional climber.  He doesn't have another job that I know of.  So, yeah, his "life" isn't over, but it's hard to maintain when your sources of income, or two main sources of income have been removed.  Kind of like when people can't travel or go on vacation or spend money on material things that they want or even need, when they're on unemployment.  So, yeah, it isn't over, but it's drastically changed.  I'm not arguing that it shouldn't have happened- I'd probably need to see every offense and also know what was behind all of it to have an opinion one way or the other.

There's a very crucial distinction between "Life as he knows it" and "Life."

I don't doubt he's getting a tough wake up call. My hunch is that the financial hit isn't as big as you think (in terms of "salary") but that he's going to miss the perks of sponsored trips, etc.

His life will go on and he was eventually going to have to switch careers soon, anyway. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

There's a very crucial distinction between "Life as he knows it" and "Life."

I don't doubt he's getting a tough wake up call. My hunch is that the financial hit isn't as big as you think (in terms of "salary") but that he's going to miss the perks of sponsored trips, etc.

His life will go on and he was eventually going to have to switch careers soon, anyway. 

True, and I tried to allude to that in my reply.  And it may not be as big as I think.  But, a "career change" would likely have been staying in the climbing industry and doing something related, but different than "brand ambassador".  A lot of the potential for that is probably gone now as well. He seems like a smart and resilient guy, so yeah, his life will probably go on- it'll probably just be a hell of a lot different than he had envisioned.

Total no brained to be polite.  He got what he deserved .

El Gato wrote: Who is Joe Kinder?

He seems like a nobody, it's not like he's done anything major to give back to the climbing community, has he?

Well, if you don't sport climb, then no, he hasn't done much to give back to the climbing community, but if you do enjoy sport climbing, then I'd consider the thousands of routes that he has bolted and cleaned as a pretty decent contribution to the community.

I'm certainly not sticking up for what he did to Sasha and others, but as far as donating time and effort for developing routes and entire areas, he has done a whole lot more than probably anyone posting on this thread.

El Gato wrote: Who is Joe Kinder?

He seems like a nobody, it's not like he's done anything major to give back to the climbing community, has he? I've heard of Sasha and until today, never heard of this dude other than he's made a few climbing films. BFD. 

How did you hear Sasha before today, and what has she done major to give back to the climbing community?

Ken Noyce wrote:

Well, if you don't sport climb, then no, he hasn't done much to give back to the climbing community, but if you do enjoy sport climbing, then I'd consider the thousands of routes that he has bolted and cleaned as a pretty decent contribution to the community.

I'm certainly not sticking up for what he did to Sasha and others, but as far as donating time and effort for developing routes and entire areas, he has done a whole lot more than probably anyone posting on this thread.

Including “Locals Only”?

It would interesting to see the ramifications of this had it happened at a larger, more "conventional" company. Seems like there would be a lawsuit on La Sportiva's (especially) or BD hands. As previous posters have mentioned LS and BD presented their release of Kinder in a rather unprofessional manner (in my opinion). Most companies out there would have handled this internally (especially LS, as Sasha and Joe are both employed by them) rather than releasing this kind of info on a platform meant mainly for gaining customers. I'm not a lawyer though, just a climber who's injured browsing the internet. 

Ken Noyce wrote:

Well, if you don't sport climb, then no, he hasn't done much to give back to the climbing community, but if you do enjoy sport climbing, then I'd consider the thousands of routes that he has bolted and cleaned as a pretty decent contribution to the community.

I'm certainly not sticking up for what he did to Sasha and others, but as far as donating time and effort for developing routes and entire areas, he has done a whole lot more than probably anyone posting on this thread.

100% agreed with the first part....I think it's safe to say he has also provided more to the climbing community than Sasha has as well.

Nate Tastic wrote: Of course not him. But that's implied by the fact that he runs the show over at Woodson.

HELL YEAH HAMISH AND NATE ITS IMPORTANT THAT YOU SHOW SOME RESPECT AND PAY HOMEAGES TO THOSE OF US WHO, FOR REASONS UNKNOWN AND ALMOST CERTAINLY ARBITRARY, DESERVE IT AND BY THE WAY I GREW HERE YOU FLEW HERE, NAWMSAYIN?  

reboot wrote:

How did you hear Sasha before today, and what has she done major to give back to the climbing community?

It's a generational thing. Sasha is a huge hero to young climbers and, particularly, young women and girls who climb. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

It's a generational thing. Sasha is a huge hero to young climbers and, particularly, young women and girls who climb. 

And long after their image of a hero have moved on to Margo Hayes or the next strong female climber, the routes Joe developed and the bolts he put in will still be there for them to actually climb on.

Got it.