Safety Third. The Glorification of Injury.

Did you just "epic"? So cool bro, I wish I could "epic" some day.

Hansy just ate shit, thumbs up? So cool? Gobright has decked, twice. Awesome? Had Osman lived by falling into a tree and being bounced around the branches, would we be singing a different tune? The climbing community has a sickness, we're addicted to "sickness".

To epic is a bad thing my friends. If you do epic and live to tell the tale you are probably just lucky. Be well.

Why shame them for injury? They go harder than any of us, and eventually it caught up to them a bit. Brad is still crushing it, and Hans will again in the future I'm sure.

Shaming them for injury is in extremely poor taste.

"epic" equals "injury"?  Am surprised.  I believe none of my partners think of an injury as a necessary part of an "epic".

I suspect that "epic=injury" meaning comes from single-pitch climbers envious of those who have non-injurous epics on multi-pitch.   Because it would be embarrassing to have a non-injurous epic on single pitch ... gotta have an injury - right?  ;)

[been there, done each]

ClimbingOn wrote: Why shame them for injury? They go harder than any of us, and eventually it caught up to them a bit. Brad is still crushing it, and Hans will again in the future I'm sure.

Shaming them for injury is in extremely poor taste.

Why shame? Good question. Because their actions glorify their injuries, This sends the wrong message. The message is go big, crush it, if you fall and are paralyzed it's not your fault, it just the risk you take in order to be cool.

To be the role models that the sponsors want them to be they should be making a statement after such incidents such as "I fucked up today. Here's what I should have done differently.... I apologize to my friends my family and my sponsors for my irresponsible behavior." The statement should not be some safety third macho bullshit, thumbs up in the hospital bed crap.

The foundational essence of trad climbing is risk, which means, among other things, that you can get hurt, paralyzed, or killed without effing up.  And if that happens, you embraced the risk and paid the price, and it most certainly is your "fault," if there is any utility in assigning blame.  

The same personality that deals with risk in a calm and controlled way is likely, when injured, to deal with that too with aplomb.  I don't think anyone is celebrating the accidents or the judgements/misjudgements that lead to them, and I don't think anyone thinks its cool to break bones or end up paraplegic.   I do think, if you are a climber, that you are likely to be impressed with the way people deal with all kinds of adversity, including injuries sustained climbing, and I also think that people try to say positive things to encourage those who are sick or injured (quite apart from climbing), and those encouragements do not constitute an unqualified affirmation of the judgements leading up to the accident or illness.

As for epics, there is a vast specturm of experiences that fit the bill, many of which are just that---experiences.  My worst epics have been in storms and no one got as much as a scratch.  And the fact is, for better or worse,  it seems to be human nature to remember trying times with something like a fondness that seems proportional to how horrible the experience actually was.

 

You really like analysis, don’t you? Seems like it’s only focused on others, have you ever spent any time looking at yourself?

Tradiban wrote:

Why shame? Good question. Because their actions glorify their injuries, This sends the wrong message. The message is go big, crush it, if you fall and are paralyzed it's not your fault, it just the risk you take in order to be cool.

To be the role models that the sponsors want them to be they should be making a statement after such incidents such as "I fucked up today. Here's what I should have done differently.... I apologize to my friends my family and my sponsors for my irresponsible behavior." The statement should not be some safety third macho bullshit, thumbs up in the hospital bed crap

Are you all talking about a video? i want to watch it. is sounds EPIC BRO  
  

Tradiban wrote:

Why shame? Good question. Because their actions glorify their injuries, This sends the wrong message. 

To who?  Dipshits that don't know that extreme pain and being injured means you can't climb as much?  Maybe these people shouldn't be climbing in the first place then.  That's just a matter of logical cognitive processes.

The message is go big, crush it, if you fall and are paralyzed it's not your fault, it just the risk you take in order to be cool.

If anyone is that susceptible to "pro marketing" then maybe that's just natural selection at work.  I don't know anyone that does any serious climbing on any kind of regular basis that says "Hans did it, so can I!"  That's fucking stupid.

To be the role models that the sponsors want them to be they should be making a statement after such incidents such as "I fucked up today. Here's what I should have done differently.... I apologize to my friends my family and my sponsors for my irresponsible behavior." The statement should not be some safety third macho bullshit, thumbs up in the hospital bed crap.

Newsflash dude:  Gear companies want to make money.  The risk is part of the draw, and minimizing that risk and the long term consequences just increases the enticement.  Get your undies in a twist if you want to, but most people have figured this game out a long time ago.  Next you'll be telling us that occasionally airbags do more harm than good.  The horror!

I thought having an epic meant spending an unplanned night on the wall / under a rock / not making it back to camp before dawn. Injuring your self isn't an epic, it's called f**king up. 

None of my epics have ended with me having an injury.

It’s not the fault of the troll when the responders get more satisfaction from stating their point over and over again in thread after thread than the troll gets from baiting its victims. 

"It's all fun and games till you can't make the corner." Bob Kerry after almost riding his super bike off the roadway into the desert. I think it is important to make it clear "this is not a game" Herb Laeger after breaking a big chalk covered hold off and going head first into the sand at Joshua Tree! It can kill or maim you. We all used to know it because it was a long way to the next piece and our friends or their friends died now and then. Epics suck, surviving them is great which is why they get a lot of press! YOU CAN GET KILLED DOING THIS! If you don't get that than go to the movies!

kevin deweese wrote: It’s not the fault of the troll when the responders get more satisfaction from stating their point over and over again in thread after thread than the troll gets from baiting its victims. 

He has reeled in some big fish already.  What do you think he'll come up with next?

"you can get hurt, paralyzed, or killed without effing up."

Mr. Goldstone, with all due respect, I do not agree and I don't think you actually believe this to be true.   Other than the once-in-a-lifetime (or never) circumstance of a block falling from above for no good reason, trad climbing is all about control, mitigation, and in most cases elimination of danger.   Isn't this the reason we dissect everything to the smallest of details, and review/discuss like scientists?  Knowledge > awareness > execution.   Don't you think accidents are the result of you doing something wrong?   You posit:  "The foundational essence of trad climbing is risk," but I think it's quite the opposite and I'm really surprised at what you said.

I agree with OP. I actually hate the whole "Safety Third" saying and concept, even if it is supposed to be a joke. After taking a 60 foot slab fall and cheese grating the skin off my arms and legs, I realized that coming home safe is actually the *only* thing that matters. If you are ready, go for it. But if it feels wrong, call take, leave gear, or back down. It doesn't matter. Stay safe and climb next weekend.

Russ Keane wrote: "you can get hurt, paralyzed, or killed without effing up."

Mr. Goldstone, with all due respect, I do not agree and I don't think you actually believe this to be true.   Other than the once-in-a-lifetime (or never) circumstance of a block falling from above for no good reason, trad climbing is all about control, mitigation, and in most cases elimination of danger.   Isn't this the reason we dissect everything to the smallest of details, and review/discuss like scientists?  Knowledge > awareness > execution.   Don't you think accidents are the result of you doing something wrong?   You posit:  "The foundational essence of trad climbing is risk," but I think it's quite the opposite and I would have expected you to say so, too.

Not so much. Have to agree with Rich. I think he will have a better response than I will have.

Russ Keane wrote: "you can get hurt, paralyzed, or killed without effing up."

Mr. Goldstone, with all due respect, I do not agree and I don't think you actually believe this to be true.   Other than the once-in-a-lifetime (or never) circumstance of a block falling from above for no good reason, trad climbing is all about control, mitigation, and in most cases elimination of danger.   Isn't this the reason we dissect everything to the smallest of details, and review/discuss like scientists?  Knowledge > awareness > execution.   Don't you think accidents are the result of you doing something wrong?   You posit:  "The foundational essence of trad climbing is risk," but I think it's quite the opposite and I'm really surprised at what you said.

It begs the question; Is risk a fundamental part of success?

Tradiban wrote:

It begs the question; Is risk a fundamental part of success?

Risk is a fundamental part of life. If you'd like to eliminate your risk; you should dig a six-foot deep hole in the ground, jump in, and have your friends fill the hole back up - you will shortly be without any risk. Short of that; risk a necessary component of life.

Tradiban wrote:

It begs the question; Is risk a fundamental part of success?

For craps sake, of course it is. Ever since someone of our ancestors was brave enough to try standing up, and some one else climbed down out of the tree.

Which I'm about to risk, the standing up, with a knee that's shit right now. Maybe I'll walk, maybe I'll crash and burn, but the coffees in the other room.

Best, OLH

Tradiban is just a troll, and y'all need to stop feeding the trolls. But since we've gotten some thoughtful responses, I'll try to engage those.

rgold wrote: The foundational essence of trad climbing is risk, which means, among other things, that you can get hurt, paralyzed, or killed without effing up.  And if that happens, you embraced the risk and paid the price, and it most certainly is your "fault," if there is any utility in assigning blame.  

I'd make one small adjustment to what you said, rgold, which is that the foundational essence of trad climbing is risk for you.

I think a lot of the disagreements on ethics/safety/whatever in the climbing world are basically because climbing is a pointless pursuit--climbing isn't inherently about anything. Why climbers climb is deeply personal to each of us, and as climbers devote more of our life to climbing our identities become entangled more in more with the reasons why we climb. So when another climber tells us what climbing is about for them, we have a tendency to see that as a disagreement with what climbing is for us, and since that's a part of who we are, it's an attack on us--we take it personally. I think that's a lot of why people are taking issue with what you're saying: they're your reasons for trad climbing as an attack on their reasons for trad climbing (my guess is that isn't your intention).

I don't think most climbers intend for their reasons to climb to be an attack on the reasons other people climb, and I'm certainly not accusing you of attacking the reasons other people climb. I just think we can avoid a lot of the disagreement here if we explicitly recognize that we all climb for slightly different reasons.

For me trad climbing isn't about risk. It's about problem solving both in body positioning on rock and in rope systems, it's learning and developing competence, it's about companionship, it's about experiencing beauty, it's about conquering my irrational fear and learning to listen to my rational fear.

Risk is an inherent component of trad climbing but it's not something I seek out, and it's something I actively avoid when possible. But I also view risk in both sides of most decisions, so it's often not avoidable. If I climb that tough, under-protected crux I might fall and break my ankle, but if I don't ever climb that tough, under-protected crux, I might never achieve my life goal of free climbing Astroman. The biggest risk most people take is never doing what they want to do in the time they have.

I always considered the foundational essence of trad climbing to be adventure.