When do you say something at the gym/crag?

Let's say you're at the gym/crag climbing and happen to notice that the neighboring party is doing X wrong. What does X have to be in order for you to intervene and say something to them? Do you intervene when its obvious they're going to die? gonna get hurt? gonna have an uncomfortable time? may have a problem? most likely won't matter but is still wrong? etc

Examples of possible things (mainly from what I've noticed at gyms through the years) include but are not limited to: giving incorrect beta about the length/safety/location of a climb, belay device unlocked, harness leg loops on backwards, belay device carabiner is cross loaded, belaying on a gri gri and periodically taking their brake hand off, don't have a correct figure eight tied, are backclipped, obviously have never belayed before, just placed a cam entirely incorrectly etc.

Let's try to keep this thread out of insulting newbies. Also I'm not saying that every one of the above situations should be intervened in, although I do tend to intervene earlier than most having worked at two gyms. 

I saw an elderly lady climbing way off route on an autobelay, and I told her that she should probably come down because the swing would be really bad, break a bone or something. She was grateful. She didn’t know and just wanted to try another route, kind of sad and lonely experience that she felt limited to an autobelay. Glad I said something to keep her safe, gave her a belay on the route so she could try.

Otherwise I don’t really say anything as I’ve never seen something life threatening. What I really hate watching is shitty instruction from a supposed mentor, but I still keep it to myself.

physnchips wrote: I saw an elderly lady climbing way off route on an autobelay, and when I told her that she should probably come down because the swing would be really bad, break a bone or something. She was grateful. She didn’t know and just wanted to try another route, kind of sad and lonely experience that she felt limited to an autobelay. Glad I said something to keep her safe, gave her a belay on the route so she could try.

That was really great of you to give her a catch also! This tends to be my rule of thumb though, that I'll say something if it looks like whatever they're doing is going to really hurt if it went wrong. 

Otherwise I don’t really say anything as I’ve never seen something life threatening. What I really hate watching is shitty instruction from a supposed mentor, but I still keep it to myself.

I really hate watching this too, and normally don't say something unless they say something really really stupid.

If it is in the gym and an immediate issue I would probably say something otherwise I would walk up to the front desk, grab an employee, and let them know they might want to have a chat.

It’s best just to post a passive aggressive gripe on the ole prodge later while plowing a pint of ice cream or beer.

I saw a group of climbers chatting at the gym. The climber was tying in and stopped without rethreading the 8. I figured he would. Or it was a joke. He got a couple holds up and I realized it was not a joke. I was like, I don’t want to harsh your mellow, but ygd. They were very grateful.  He would’ve decked from the top of the wall. 
At a crag, I told someone i did t think it was a good idea to climb a mixed route with only one cam (his only cam) even though his friend told him he thought it was the right size.  He told me it was an easy route for him because he climbs 5.10 in the gym. I said then you might as well free solo it. This guy was pissed I got in his business, but I didn’t want to clean blood off my stuff... 

There was one time I saw where someone could improve their lead belay technique.  I started by asking "Would you like some feedback on your belay technique?".  This tends to smooth feathers over rather nicely.  Didn't hurt that that person was also one of my students/employees/underlings... but not my climbing partner.

I've also just straight out pointed out safety-related things (unlocked carabiners, etc) to complete strangers.  Things that are objectively wrong/unsafe, people tend to be "Oh, didn't see that".  And if they DGAF with that, then you've done your due diligence, and maybe they deserve a Darwin award.  If it's subjective, I'll probably only butt in if I know the person and am on decent terms with them.  Otherwise, I just don't have the rapport for them to give a rat's a** about what I say.

You don't.  Have you been to a "destination" climbing spot lately?  It's fucking insane.  Too many gyms and gear companies pushing the shit down the public's throat.  Maybe if a few of these dumdums bounce off the deck in a very public manner, people will start giving the risk of this sport the respect it deserves and you won't have so many goddamned morons out there engaging in 10 kinds of fuckery.

Let the bodies hit the floor.

Getting between rope and the wall is one of my pet peeves and something seen a lot at the grades I climb.  "sub moderate."  depending on how sketched out the climber is, I'll say something to the belayer during the sin or after wards.  "Hey, you need to look out for your buddy, he's going to take a bad fall getting tangled up in that rope."  most of the time the response is either a friendly blow off to a friendly thanks.

Lead climbers should know you don't do that and belayers should be watching and correcting the behavior before someone gets to the clip at the crux.  

don'tchuffonme wrote: You don't.  Have you been to a "destination" climbing spot lately?  It's fucking insane.  Too many gyms and gear companies pushing the shit down the public's throat.  Maybe if a few of these dumdums bounce off the deck in a very public manner, people will start giving the risk of this sport the respect it deserves and you won't have so many goddamned morons out there engaging in 10 kinds of fuckery.

Let the bodies hit the floor.

Hello fellow Darwinist!

I used to be fully hands off/walk away, then one day a body dropped off the cliff and almost landed on people in our party by about 5' , now I speak up more often.

don'tchuffonme wrote: You don't.  Have you been to a "destination" climbing spot lately?  It's fucking insane.  Too many gyms and gear companies pushing the shit down the public's throat.  Maybe if a few of these dumdums bounce off the deck in a very public manner, people will start giving the risk of this sport the respect it deserves and you won't have so many goddamned morons out there engaging in 10 kinds of fuckery.

Let the bodies hit the floor

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Guy was hip belaying his kid at the gym onetime and me and my friend were debating saying something but the guy clearly knew what he was doing even though it wasn't allowed at the gym. Someone who worked at the gym finally saw and stopped him but I wasn't really worried enough to say anything because he knew what he was doing. It isn't always about telling someone not to do something if they are doing it "wrong" or "odd" it is more about only speaking up when you clearly know they aren't doing it on purpose and are in danger.

If someone is doing something that may cause them to be hurt (or worse), we should say something, at the gym or at the crag. As as guide for many years, I had several opportunities to intervene and didn't hesitate to step in. I think the key to a successful interchange (resulting in a safer situation), is our attitude and demeanor when we approach other climbers. I always introduced myself, explained that I was a professional instructor, and prefaced my offer of assistance by saying something along the lines of "I'm concerned for your safety. May I help you have a better and safer day?" By being polite and offering to help in a kind and respectful manner, I never once had anyone refuse to at least listen to what I had to say. Now, in a truly life-threatening situation, with imminent and immediate potential for disaster, just jump in and fix things---there will be plenty of time to decompress and sort out hurt egos later. (I've never had to do this, BTW). I was once climbing with a friend in the Adirondacks, and as we traversed a big ledge above a popular toproping spot, we saw a very dangerous TR anchor set-up being used as a slingshot belay. Communication with the ground wasn't possible, so we simple sacrificed a couple of slings and a locker and quietly incorporated a large tree into the TR anchor so it would take the load. And then we just left and went climbing. We hoped that when the leader of the TR group came to take apart their anchor, that they would also take away a good lesson in anchor-building. And no egos were damaged in the process.

After some unpleasant interactions, I've told myself "only if there's danger of imminent death", but in practice end up saying something pretty much every time.

Just in last year or so:

- Calling people off probably the same mixed route Tommy is talking about above.
- Completely taking over a belay from an obviously clueless belayer.
- Various variations of "No, that's not 10a, that's 11c with crappy fall potential."
- Telling a husband/wife team: " It's not a good idea to try to teach your wife how to belay on a route that's super hard for you." I cleaned the draws for the husband who couldn't finish the route and all was well.

All these interactions went fine, but in the past have had to deal with some grumpiness and fragile egos.

Let me preface the below statement that I was one of those kids that had to touch the stove to know it was hot.... and my parents let me do it.

What/if I say depends on severity and location. Indoors I'm a little more relaxed. If the "offending party" is a kid I'll say something regardless of severity. If they're an adult I'll let it play out as long as there is minimal chance of a severe injury or them hurting someone else. If it's outdoors I'm a little less lax because the cost of a mistake can be worse. That being said if the worst that will happen is a bruised shin, arm, or ego I'll let it play out and hope that the pain teaches the person not to do it again.

Every situation is different so it really is case by case. 

Adam Ronchetti wrote: Indoors I'm a little more relaxed. If the "offending party" is a kid I'll say something regardless of severity. If they're an adult I'll let it play out as long as there is minimal chance of a severe injury or them hurting someone else. 

The 'ol gym first date where the dude gives his girl an asshat and rope burn.  I tally that up on the person getting in over their head both climbing and with their partners.  And the gym.  But I always wonder what the 2nd date looks like....

ConorCarroll wrote:

The 'ol gym first date where the dude gives his girl an asshat and rope burn.  I tally that up on the person getting in over their head both climbing and with their partners.  And the gym.  But I always wonder what the 2nd date looks like....

I can honestly say that I have never seen that. I've seen plenty of the bro tank and basket ball shorts with women in makeup and long nails but this could just be due to the difference in where we live. 

I will say this, when I see someone wearing rings while climbing I do usually tell them that it would be smart to take them off.

But yeah, it does beg the question where you (general sense) have to go from there?

physnchips wrote: I saw an elderly lady climbing way off route on an autobelay, and when I told her that she should probably come down because the swing would be really bad, break a bone or something. She was grateful. She didn’t know and just wanted to try another route, kind of sad and lonely experience that she felt limited to an autobelay. Glad I said something to keep her safe, gave her a belay on the route so she could try.

Otherwise I don’t really say anything as I’ve never seen something life threatening. What I really hate watching is shitty instruction from a supposed mentor, but I still keep it to myself.

Lol! This "sad, lonely, elderly" lady is on the autobelay all the time! That's my quick before work burn, when the gym is almost empty. Training. Nice of you to help her out. I'll often ask the other autobelay people if they want a quick catch on anything. That's just courtesy, to me, if I have time.

I'm the opposite side of that pendulum story, too. Coming to the gym from outside, my perspective on falls, and judging potential harm, is pretty good. First time out, at a new gym, one of the gym only climbers was very concerned about the pendulum fall I would take, at the top, on a top rope, being off to one side, before being lowered. Wanted me to climb back to center. I just let go. A four foot swing. Oh dear. Lol!

I do speak up, but, it's usually a pretty gentle exchange of information, and I ask. I'm pretty nonthreatening, as that "old lady". But, I also will ask questions. If I see someone doing something different or interesting, or gear I don't know, it's a great opportunity to learn a new thing. Many, many ways to do most of what we do. "Different" isn't always "wrong".

Best, OLH

Something like "your harness is on backwards" (YES, it has happened...), or "hey, you are backclipped/your belay 'biner is unlocked" are quick and easy things to say, so I would say it right away, gym or crag. And I cannot see that people would object.

Stuff like, "hey, would you like to borrow a stick clip?" in a case when someone is obviously looking shaky just a foot of the ground, and I know it gets harder before he clips the first bolt, or " hey, he shouldn't toprope it without directionals, he is going to swing into that boulder if he falls" I would say something.

Bad belay- in the gym I would flag the gym staff and let them observe/deal with it. Outside... that would be tougher. I don't want to spend a day teaching someone how to belay. The only time I observed it happening was in a group of people of varied abilities, where the stronger climbers decided to climb/set up the second route while the newbie belayer was belaying another newbie on toprope on the first route they set up. I told the more experienced climber in their group to watch the guy, and they intervened right away.

In general, I am not watching other people particularly closely, so it would have to be something dramatic, or I would have to be climbing in a group of 3, where I'm resting and have time to watch the show... if I'm either climbing or belaying, I probably wouldn't notice.

If I see something unsafe, I say something.  If it is just incorrect beta and not that big a deal, then I let it go.  In the gym, I saw a very experienced climber about to climb without tying in.  I am sure he would have figured it out when he got the first bolt and just hopped off, but I said something.  Another time a kid was belaying another kid (he had a belay card) and there was a ton of slack in the TR system.  I yelled at the kid who was climbing to stop, helped take in the slack, and then had the kid lower off so that they could undo the wrap that was causing all the friction.  The kid's parent who was very close by was not even paying attention.  I amost always do a quick check for rings when I see someone very inexperiencd in the gym, and have told more that a few to take the rings off.  I've told newbies not to stand on or grab bolts.  I had a climber (someone I know) get dropped from the top and deck about 2 feet from me because their belayer messed up.  She was not seriously hurt (thank you padded floors), but I wish I had looked at the belayer and spotted what he was doing wrong.  I have seen climbers plan to rap off routes with ropes that are too short and instead had them use my rope.  Recently, a buddy had to stop a novice from climbing because his belayer (who was belaying from the top) had not yet put him on belay.  Recently I was in the gym and someone was mid-way through trying to tell me I forgot to tie the first 8 before putting the rope through my harness when I tied my bowline.  I was fine with him saying something, even though he jumped to the wrong conclusion on what I was doing.

I will call out anything I see that is clearly unsafe.  If you have ever been in a gym or at a crag when someone gets hurt, then everything stops, all the fun and good energy goes away for the rest of the session, and it just sticks with you.  I'd rather be the jerk who says something.  If you are nice about it, then 99% of the people are going to be fine with what you did.  For the other 1%, if I think what they are doing is really dangerous, I am going to remove myself from the situation.

It's not so much about when to say something as it is about HOW to say something. Be courteous, don't be accusatory, and don't act like gods gift to climbing when informing someone of a mistake you believe they are making. We were all new at one time or another.

I've also noticed that there are alot of people at the crags that have clearly  read the accident reports and safety articles in rock and ice but are clearly lacking in actual experience and these people tend to jump the gun about preaching safety.  If you see something that you think is sketchy, but you are also unfamiliar with the system, maybe take a second to ask a few questions before automatically assuming you know best. If you're one of the old dad's then preach away, you've probably got some wisdom worth sharing.