Sport Climbs that require Trad Pro, ie Mixed routes. Love them? Hate them?

Farley has a good system where the first bolt on a mixed route is painted yellow. 

Pnelson wrote:

Yes! I love the vibe and style at City of Rocks.  It's always cool to bring both a stickclip and a trad rack out for a day's cragging.

Lol! I also thought of COR immediately. But, we have routes locally that are the same (put up at the same time, some by the same guys), where ground fall is a possibility quite a ways up, and some gear might save your ass. "Easy" climbs are not always beginner friendly. Fine by me, this noob knows to take what precautions she deems needed.

I most definitely am not a trad climber by anyone's definition, but you betcha I'll have my dinky rack with me now that I'm starting to lead. At the very least, some nuts to aid through what is out of reach.

The newest guidebook for City is totally worth the money. Dave even let's you know if you might be wanting that stick clip, when the very start is "spicy". Sun/shade, distance to hike in, on and on. 

There are also, happily, places that don't give you much "guidance". If we're making a trip to a remote spot, it's on me and my partners to bring enough to handle surprises. That's part of the fun, and why I love living where I do.

Best, Helen

At the risk of sounding like an old crank, bolts should only be placed where natural protection cannot safely be had. I am not anti bolts, but the decision to place a bolt next to a crack, should not be about convenience, but to show some respect for the rock.

Pnelson wrote:

Yes! I love the vibe and style at City of Rocks.  It's always cool to bring both a stickclip and a trad rack out for a day's cragging.

Swiss Cheese definitely comes to mind.  First time up I thought the bolting was asinine, but now it’s one of my favorite single pitch routes at the grade

T Roper wrote:

Sportos will always HATE the gear placements, traddies will hate the bolts. Real climbers will just be happy to climb something.

Fixed that for ya. 

Hey, when you're eyeballing cracks while walking down the alleys...in the winter...wondering if crumbling concrete will go in crampons...sigh.

Best, H.

Personally when I see crags grid bolted, when half the crag could be easy and solid gear, it is disappointing. Clipping bolts next to textbook placements is and always will be weak IMO. I'll still climb it though, I'll just be wondering who the trustafarian gym climber was that did it.

I like mixed climbs.

I respect that some of you guys value a  run out experience but I avoid such climbs.

Thus adding a few bolts to protect a trad climb means I might get on it.

Fully bolting it means everyone will get on it. I don't like crowds or high traffic, so fully bolted is a negative for me.

Good topic, one I debate with my peers all the time. 

My stance is this... on good stone, the best is to climb ground up— put in the pro (bolts pins hexes whatever) you require to do the climb. Others can not add bolts to this sort of climb. 

On crap stone, the sort that requires cleaning from above and bolts placed on rap. That’s Sport climbing and thoughts about using gear should be tossed out the window. IMHO nothing is more stupid than needing a #3 for that “killer pod placement” that you come to after clipping 10 bolts below. Another stupid thing is run out sport climbing on choss, but that’s another subject.

Now I know my views are formed by the region where I live, California, and the stone I have to climb on. Normally it’s solid granite or crumbling choss with not much in between. 

Climb on

A mostly bolted route w/ a couple somewhat mandatory pieces is a bit annoying.

A mostly gear protected route with a bolt (or fixed gear) protected hard crux is just weak sauce.

reboot wrote:

A mostly bolted route w/ a couple somewhat mandatory pieces is a bit annoying.

A mostly gear protected route with a bolt (or fixed gear) protected hard crux is just weak sauce.

So... weak sauce ... climbs like Hobbit Book, The B&Y, Nutcracker and just about all Valley Climbs.

Whatever 

I am convinced that in Vermont so many of these routes were left mixed so that there would never be a line on them at the popular sport crags. The people that don't want to bring a rack never do, and the crusty locals have the local 8 piece rack of gear memorized for all the mixed climbs that require 1-2 pieces of gear and they climb them with a shit eating grin while people wait to do the sport climbs.

Guy Keesee wrote:

So... weak sauce ... climbs like Hobbit Book, The B&Y, Nutcracker and just about all Valley Climbs.

Whatever 

Didn't know B&Y is mostly gear protected.

Regardless, making an exception to your "pure" ethics when the going gets tough is weak sauce. 

I've developed a bunch of mixed routes (I just can't bring myself to put a bolt next to a gear placement), and I think that as long as you ensure that the route is reasonably and consistently protected (in other words, don't make the bolted bits wicked runout in comparison with the trad bits), and make it clear when speaking to people and in guidebooks what rackage is needed for your route or area, all is well. 

I have noticed that mountain project posters tend to be inconsistent when listing this kind of route. I have seen a number of routes where trad/sport means mixed and then about as many where trad/sport means a sport climb that could be gear protected instead. It seems to me that any route that requires gear to be led safely should just be listed as trad. Of course there is also the 'sport' climbs that are super runout over easy terrain that could be gear protected, I am not sure how to label those.

The Totem Pole in Lower Devils Canyon, AZ is a great example of how annoying these ethics can be. The first pitch has about 8 bolts to bolted anchors. The second and final pitch has 4 bolts and a final 15 foot runout over a TINY flared crack below more chains. You have to wiggle in a janky #4 nut placement in the middle of the crux with 12 bolts below you and deck potential onto a ledge below. 

Nevertheless, it’s an AMAZING route and I’m obviously grateful to whoever put it up, but just add the freakin’ bolt. 

jeeze. it must be really annoying to carry the extra weight of a micro stopper all the way up that route....    also agreed that it sounds like the perfect place for one more bolt. 

These routes are not good at sport cliffs, though.   Most of this crowd has no gear, and could get hurt launching up such a route.    So it's all about how the area is developed.  

Like said above, Farley in western Mass has a painted gold first bolt, to tell you BRING GEAR

Russ Keane wrote:

These routes are not good at sport cliffs, though.   Most of this crowd has no gear, and could get hurt launching up such a route.    So it's all about how the area is developed.  

Like said above, Farley in western Mass has a painted gold first bolt, to tell you BRING GEAR

Gold first bolt = gear needed. Subtle and totally brilliant. I lived in Golden CO for many years and used to climb a bunch at the Golden Cliffs, the sport area on the mesa practically right in town. For funsies, I would try to lead the bolted routes using as much gear as possible and skipping bolts. Whenever I found a bolt that could be safely skipped by the imaginative use of gear, I would paint the hanger black. I didn't want to ruin anyone's sport experience, but at the same time let them know that other options existed. 

Peter Lewis wrote:

Gold first bolt = gear needed. Subtle and totally brilliant. I lived in Golden CO for many years and used to climb a bunch at the Golden Cliffs, the sport area on the mesa practically right in town. For funsies, I would try to lead the bolted routes using as much gear as possible and skipping bolts. Whenever I found a bolt that could be safely skipped by the imaginative use of gear, I would paint the hanger black. I didn't want to ruin anyone's sport experience, but at the same time let them know that other options existed. 

I like this--let people choose their own adventure!

reboot wrote:

Didn't know B&Y is mostly gear protected.

Regardless, making an exception to your "pure" ethics when the going gets tough is weak sauce. 

reboot.... please explain “weak sauce “ ..... 

I see you have Romantic Warrior on your “to do” list. 

You will find that one “not a sport climb”...and when ya get to a bolt, you will clip it and give thanks to god. 

But I really do not understand your statement/stance on this issue.