Be clear about the bird closures around here, OK? YOU ARE ON CAMERA!

Absolutely post them. Here on the front range we. As climbers, have to make it 100 percent priorityto play nice and by the rules. We have to protect our climbing areas otherwise we could very much lose them. With more and more folks getting into sport it is imperative that they know what the rules are and the importance to follow them. There are too many folks and organizations out there fighting to keep and gain access to new areas. We have to be responsible as a community. 

Greg D wrote:

Nobody likes a rat. 

If you infiltrate a criminal enterprise with the intent on destroying it by legal means or are part of a criminal enterprise and turn on it to protect yourself from the law is that is a rat.

Turning in some fucking douche bags that climb in protected space because they don't care about natural conservation efforts is NOT EVEN CLOSE to being a rat. That's called being a upstanding  citizen. Calling someone a rat for that makes you look like a douchebag because you are taking the side of the douchebags that didn't care and chose to climb anyway. Versus the side of the people that are trying to protect the birds and help them. Don't worry though, you can still be cool when you go back to highschool on monday because you can tell your bros " I aint no rat yo!"

Just get real here. These people didn't care about the environmental protection and they are climbers. A group that represents us as outdoors enthusiasts that care about the environment and the land. The real rats here are the sneaky scumbags who don't give a fuck and care more about their 1 hour dopamine rush than the conservation of a species. 

Neil Kauffman wrote:

Speculations. That is a problem with many of the bird closures, many are blanket closures with no continued monitoring efforts. This approach has left some in the climbing community upset with how the agencies are managing the land. We need facts and science that informs reasonable management strategies. This is the way to cooperate with the community, gaining support for projects, rather than  trying to enforce policies that don't make sense.

No, I do not believe the photos should be posted, as a way to "catch" and shame the offenders. Furthermore, if there are cameras monitoring public lands, the area should be signed to notify and provide transparency. 

It sounds like you are a bit poorly considered on a few points there, so if you want to talk about it, we can do that.

First of all, why the hell would someone heve to post that there are cameras pointed at birds nests on land that is closed?  
It is posted that it is closed, not open to the public..  If you don't enter the closed area, you can not be photographed.  So what is there to notify about?

Second, There are facts and science that are published behind the closures.  There are press releases that are covered even on this website.
The fact that you do not know about it does not mean that is doesn't exist.  What particular questions do you have?

Post them up. People that say otherwise either didn’t observe the closures before or won’t do it in the future. Personally I don’t think shaming is enough. If it takes one douche to pay 10K $ for their ignorance so others will learn how to observe posted closures, I’m good with that.

What you just described is very close to how the management works here. The closures are targeted to certain areas with known nesting sites. They are a little larger until the birds choose a nest - which they are in the process of doing right now! Once they select a nest, that is the only area that remains closed. As Tony said - and he is the expert here - the land managers are working closely with climbers to protect the birds without having an unreasonable impact on access. 

Edit to add: lots of signage. Shouldn’t have to post cameras are there to discourage people further. We should be doing the right thing, because it’s the right thing, not because we are afraid of being caught doing the wrong thing. 

Neil Kauffman wrote:

Well for one thing, having signs about the cameras could deter someone who thought to ignore the closure. And secondly, to show transparency as an avenue to gain cooperation and support for the project from the community. Too often the Biologists take the species as their own and cut off all interactions from the public, further isolating the species for their own "good". 

As for the lack of science behind the management, I was referring to nesting closures in general, not just the specific eagle project around Boulder, (which I admittedly know little about). It should be the agency's job to keep the closures pertinent and effective, so the birds are actually protected and the community can feel good about cooperating, not wondering why half the mountain is closed for a season when there's no birds around. Yosemite NP has a productive strategy where the initial blanket closure is amended after nests are identified, allowing unused sites to be reopened. In my experience the community response is positive and it shows the agency's willingness to cooperate and provide the best possible management solutions. I just hate blanket closures and feel they are hindering the public outreach part of the project which is totally key.

Had you considered the following question:
What budget does a district biologist have for signage?

And next question:
Did you read the posts about how a lot of the folks are volunteers?  Had you seen the BCC's call for volunteers?  That's hardly 'cut off from the public.'  

Third question:
Have you heard of the 'The Bald and Golden Eagle Protection Act' of 1940?  And if so, what leeway do you think a district ranger or biologist has over this, given that CPW further give guidelines?
Beverly (the last District Biologist) pushed some of the limits in the last few years by going into what would be ambiguously defined as closeable space by CPW's interpretation of the law as it is written, to study view shed and bird reactions and made some judgement calls... that is why the top of Happy Hour is NOT closed anymore if the nest is on Blob, as of the year before last.  We have been and are moving in the right direction.

Fourth question:
Are you aware of the gains we've made in access and the flexibility that the VOLUNTEER STAFFED civilian volunteer eagle monitoring program that the USFS and the BCC got running about.. maybe 8 years ago now?  And the changes in Access?  We are talking about THIS closure here.   Why are you going on about Yosemite as a model and how they ease blanket closures when appropriate?  THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT THOSE CAMERAS THAT YOU CRITICIZED ARE FOR!

As for 'public cooperation and feeling good about the closure... did you read the other posts?  Did you notice that a lot of them are from long term and very active locals, including LCO board members, developers, prolific first ascensionists, etc... and that they seem to (in some cases quite enthusiastically) endorse/support the closures?  And did I not mention that the USFS has engaged in preliminary discussion at this point about a possible trimming of what presently exists?    

Look man, you can go on about your experience and such, but you just admitted that you don't know much about this closure, and you are proving it line by line.
If you want to have a beer some time, or come to the public training/information session next year or even join the monitoring program so that you can help with it, let me know and I can put you on the list for next year or see if there is a make-up session this year yet to come, which I think is coming up. 

Neil Kauffman wrote:

I get the feeling many of the posts in this topic are emotionally driven responses. It's okay to be angry about the blatant disregard for the closure, but we should review our emotions before interacting with others. Calling them douches and saying they deserve a 10k fine is a little inconsiderate. 10k is a lot of money, it's probably as much as some climbers pull in all year. Is that really a good punishment? And that would be the fine IF their actions could be proven to harm the animals, which would be externally hard to prove. Fines are not a always an effective deterrent, but maybe nothing is in some cases. Only a madman deals in absolutes. Im just sayin, we should treat people and cases on an individual basis.

OK, but I will say - I had to giggle when I read your quote:  "Only a madman deals in absolutes."

REALLY?   ONLY?      As in NOBODY ELSE?  Isn't that kind of... absolute?

There are a lot of things you've said here too that are way O.T. or kind of ironic, but as per your post above, thanks for acknowledging that the situation in question is not what you are talking about. I appreciate it.  

This closure is actually very well managed and improving is steps as we get the data to justify changes.  We like the direction it is headed in, and want to keep it headed that way.  I'm hoping by next season to roll out another downward adjustment in the closure that could be QUITE big and these clowns (closure violators) are risking Fing that all up!

Neil Kauffman wrote:

I get the feeling many of the posts in this topic are emotionally driven responses. It's okay to be angry about the blatant disregard for the closure, but we should review our emotions before interacting with others. Calling them douches and saying they deserve a 10k fine is a little inconsiderate. 10k is a lot of money, it's probably as much as some climbers pull in all year. Is that really a good punishment? And that would be the fine IF their actions could be proven to harm the animals, which would be externally hard to prove. Fines are not a always an effective deterrent, but maybe nothing is in some cases. Only a madman deals in absolutes. Im just sayin, we should treat people and cases on an individual basis.

I beg to differ. I doubt that there’s any law that treat us on an individual basis, it’s a blanket and mandatory  for all of us. 10K fine must be high for a reason, usually deterrents have consequences. First time I run into bird closure sign I didn’t even know they existed, I read the sign and I could have done two things, be a douche or turn around. I’ve epiced that day hard but I wasn’t that guy, not because of possibility of shaming or a fine, it’s because I’m not the only one climbing.

It might be helpful to put up flyers in the local gyms (including CU and other colleges) explaining just how seriously this particular closure is enforced.

Maybe outdoor shops too.

Tony, Thanks for your time and patience for this. You are a great representative for us.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

I beg to differ. I doubt that there’s any law that treat us on an individual basis, it’s a blanket and mandatory  for all of us. 10K fine must be high for a reason, usually deterrents have consequences. First time I run into bird closure sign I didn’t even know they existed, I read the sign and I could have done two things, be a douche or turn around. I’ve epiced that day hard but I wasn’t that guy, not because of possibility of shaming or a fine, it’s because I’m not the only one climbing.

We agree on the possible courses of action.  Someone made just that choice on Friday.  I got a note from another Volunteer Friday afternoon:

"Just back from reattaching the BCC signs (insert to add, we payed for and added ADDITIONAL signage to the USFS signs with their permission so as to make it clear that the community has looked this over and is working with the USFS, and this is not some arbitrary or rediculous closure), flagging the entrance trails and signs, and drug branches across for good measure. (...) Now for the best part: As I was driving down to park at Cob Rock, I noticed two climbers exiting their car at the Blob pullout and pulled over. I said, "I really hope that you are are not planning to climb here." "Well, in fact we are!" The fellow replied.  I then explained the situation. They were both clueless, having not read the signs yet, and were quite relived for not to getting into trouble. We all left thankful."

I suspect that they would have seen the signs and turned around, but some folks end up so focused on a goal that they decide to proceed anyway, and then.... then the trouble starts.

I can elaborate a bit on the law:  https://www.fws.gov/midwest/midwestbird/eaglepermits/bagepa.html

From that link:  "Disturb" means: “to agitate or bother a bald or golden eagle to a degree that causes, or is likely to cause, based on the best scientific information available, 1) injury to an eagle, 2) a decrease in its productivity, by substantially interfering with normal breeding, feeding, or sheltering behavior, or 3) nest abandonment, by substantially interfering with normal breeding, feeding, or sheltering behavior."

And sorry, I dropped a 0 when I spoke of the fine.  It CAN be $100k, but that would be for egregious abuses like destroying a nest or hunting them, etc:

"Violation of the Act can result in a fine of $100,000 ($200,000 for organizations), imprisonment for one year, or both, for a first offense. Penalties increase substantially for additional offenses, and a second violation of this Act is a felony."

FYI, the last person I know of that got a cliff-chicken ticket was fined $100 for violating the closure with no substantial disruption to the birds, and it was not in this district.  it was RMNP (Lumpy Ridge).  I don't know of anyone who has been fined in OUR district, but we actually have pretty reasonable compliance.

Here is a bit more on the population of Golden Eagles.  We have a few hundred pairs (total) nesting in Colorado, and they are on the decline, overall.  Broadly:

https://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/pdf/management/EagleRuleRevisions-StatusReport.pdf

Thanks again for tuning in, everybody.  We've got a ton of vigilant people who care and Hopefully we can keep it 99% clean and don't have nest or territory abandonment that could lead to expansion of closures.  

Corey Flynn wrote:

You guys spend too much time on the internet. Ive lived in Boulder for a while now. The closures kinda suck. Two fools breaking curfew isnt going to get our crags taken away. Go climb something, the weather has been nice out lately. 

This is why we can't have nice things. 

Corey Flynn wrote:

You guys spend too much time on the internet. Ive lived in Boulder for a while now. The closures kinda suck. Two fools breaking curfew isnt going to get our crags taken away. Go climb something, the weather has been nice out lately. 

Yes, I spend too much time on the net.  I am recovering from a rotator cuff and labrum repair and it sucks.  I'd way rather be out climbing, but that's a non-option.  So here I am.

So... you've been here a while.  I agree that nobody is going to loose crags over this.  But when is the last time you've worked with one of the land management agencies or sat down and had a discussion about the size and scope of closures?  I've been involved with 4 different agencies, helped found 2 LCO's, and been on a monitoring team working with the USFS for close to a decade.  
And although I admit that it is just my impression, it is my impression that it may be enough that the folks considering shrinking the closure might respond: "We need more perimeter, not less."  And this is very poor timing.  Or maybe I am overly cautious.  

Likewise, it is fairly transparent, I would think, that this 'publicity' is not just about 2 people.  (I'd thought that the title gives that away.) It is a plea for others not to do this, an intent to raise awareness, and also a warning for those who have no 'better nature' to appeal to.

Long Ranger wrote:

I think Tony just explained that the bird nests are, in fact, monitored both by the USFS and by bird watching enthusiasts. 

Usually when the bird closures are going into effect, there's a rundown of how many nests were occupied by which exact birds, and how many offsprings there were, showing how useful the bird closures are. Some closures are lifted early, because guess what? No nests.

Just FYI to anyone tuned in.. In Boulder we are pretty well off.
This model is presently followed by Eldorado Canyon S.P. The local USFS district, OSMP of Boulder, and also Jeffco to at least some degree as of late.  
Erika might be the most informed about the most current status of the latter (?) I left that matter in other hands 2-3 years ago since i don't live down there and have not paid good attention.

Boulder and the USFS will open unused nest areas and fledged nest areas weeks or even days early if it is suitable, to give climbers that extra time.
Not everyone is so lucky.  In broader, less well-funded, and less populated areas, closures are often more blanket nad not flexible.

The following has been edited to reflect the fact that D.T.N.M. has updated it's management and policies.
Though it has been changed since, but to give perspective to how things once were, I include this story:   

I was climbing on Devil's tower and avoided their falcon closures about 10 years ago... even though it seemed to be common knowledge that the birds were not there.
I was way up high and off to the side on an unpopular route that nobody else apparently takes to the top when I actually FOUND the falcons, who were decidedly NOT in the closure area.
I reported this to the rangers at the visitor's center.  They indicated it was of no matter, and the tone of it was more or less nonchalance and so the closure stayed... in the wrong place and failing to actually protect the peregrines.  Too much hassle to change it, I suppose, so late in the season.  Now that would have me riled were I a local.  But that's not what we re dealing with here, and as I am informed, has changed at DTNM.  So this is the sort of thing we want to embrace, and not violate.

I say post em, and when they are identified, I’ll grab embarrassing pics from social media to photoshop and ridicule...again.

And I’ll get put on an MP timeout...again

Corey Flynn wrote:

You guys spend too much time on the internet. Ive lived in Boulder for a while now. The closures kinda suck. Two fools breaking curfew isnt going to get our crags taken away. Go climb something, the weather has been nice out lately. 

oh to be 28 and not have a fvcking clue about anything again.  those were the days...  if only 28 year olds were old enough to remember the superfresh debacle that took about 20 years to un-do.

I'm bummed because I got a notification that Michael Schneider posted here, but it was gone before I could soak in the genius that was likely laid out before us.

Tony B,

The falcon closures at Devils Tower have defiantly evolved in the last 10 years.

 Lucas & Rosa have been the DT Climbing Rangers for the last few years, and have done an Amazing job. Using the information from  climbers of  “most recent falcon sightings “, as well as their own observations, the route closings on the Monument have been kept minimal and to the most  pertinent areas.

I’m sorry for what is going on in your area, I hope it gets resolved, and people will learn from this.

ShanJ2me wrote:

Tony B,

The falcon closures at Devils Tower have defiantly evolved in the last 10 years.

 Lucas & Rosa have been the DT Climbing Rangers for the last few years, and have done an Amazing job. Using the information from  climbers of  “most recent falcon sightings “, as well as their own observations, the route closings on the Monument have been kept minimal and to the most  pertinent areas.

I’m sorry for what is going on in your area, I hope it gets resolved, and people will learn from this.

Glad to hear that!  I wish it were that all property managers would get on board with this sort of management & if necessary get climbers in on the monitoring to help with the manpower issue it creates.
This improves the situation in several ways, including solidifying relationships & increasing the # and breadth of who are "stake holders" in the outcome.  The good faith it buys from climbers can not be understated when it comes to the willingness to comply with (reasonable) closures, and thus with outcomes.  That having been said, I will edit the first post to change the content to reflect the current situation up there.

Thanks for the update on D.T.

These guys likely have nothing to do with this particular episode, but they make me laugh and are somewhat related.  Can't remember the exact thread they were from

EDIT:  Photos removed from the thread to allow jackass bros to escape scrutiny for past mistakes.