What do you expect from a gym?

Jake Jones wrote:

Try that where you can't see the holds, or better yet outside.

I do it on a pretty regular basis. No need to use those shitty guidebooks. Just get there and climb some fun lines. If it is freaking dirty it could even be the first ascent, who knows? In the worst case you will loose a cam or a couple nuts bailing off. In return you will get a real experience (and a bit of remorse for littering a route… although it is a bit of sponsoring better climbers will collect some booty which is not that bad idea).

Ken Noyce wrote:

Just in case this point is talking about my post as the part discussed earlier in the thread, I want to clarify that I absolutely do prefer routes that are sustained, If I want to train cruxes, I boulder.  My complaint actually had to do with grading.  I know that grading is always difficult, but at my gym where most of the route setters are primarily boulderers, they grade routes based on the hardest move, but when the route is sustained and 70 feet tall, the routes end up being very sandbagged.  Obviously I can just realize that this is how they set and adjust the routes I try accordingly, but it's still annoying.

My problem with ONLY sustained routes is that I don't get a chance to practice closer-to-limit moves and the tactics of actually redpointing on a rope. I agree that some of the fitness for redpointing can be achieved with various protocols on the bouldering wall, but I still think there's value in actually trying to redpoint in the gym when I'm training for sport climbing.

If my gym only has super sustained lead climbs, then I'm pretty much stuck training on moves way below my limit or forced to train on the bouldering wall which is good for fitness but not as good for lead head, redpoint tactics, etc. Or I can try lead climbs that are too hard for me to realistically send, but that still doesn't really give much benefit in terms of practicing lead climbing.

The gym I lead climb at frequently has a tall and steep lead wall, and fairly recently I noticed some routes started having rests for the first time. It's overhanging enough that the rests are still bad and the wall is tall enough that there's no real risk of decking even if you fall on the bouldery moves before the rest. This is great because if I want to climb a 5.12+, I can either choose from a sustained enduro route that probably has no single move harder than V3 and also no move easier than V1, or I can choose a cruxier route that is still probably mostly V1 but also has some V5 cruxes and V0 rests thrown in. Not saying one is better than the other, I just like the variety.

I wish my gym would ban the bearded cross fit gang, thats all I ask. That and more soft ratings to make me feel better about my "training".

Dan Austin wrote:

If my gym only has super sustained lead climbs, then I'm pretty much stuck training on moves way below my limit or forced to train on the bouldering wall which is good for fitness but not as good for lead head, redpoint tactics, etc.

Make yourself a crux. Just skip the best hold near the top.

If one is to train they will figure it out how to employ what they have to train hard. If one is to make excuses they will surely find quadzillions of them.

Just to be less cryptic.

There are different approaches how to utilize your rock climbing gym environment. You can play a kiddish game "grab those fancy colored pieces of plastic to make it to the top". It is you playing some kind of stupid kiddish game. No excuses your gym does not provide a perfect training environment are allowed. You are there to play your games. So play your games. And have your kiddish fun.

On the other hand you can train there pushing yourself to overcome your shortcomings. You define your rules. The only rule is to get better. You are there to improve your climbing and to reach your goals.

The choice is yours.

Training is hard. Getting better is hard. If you wanna play your kiddish games go and play your kiddish games. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish intellect. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish behaviour. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish emotions. It is all yours. Be honest.

It is all about your focus. Focus on the process of getting better and get better. Focus on stupid kiddish games and become a stupid kid playing stupid kiddish games. The choice is yours. Just be honest.

Pavel is busy playing his own game here

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Pavel is busy playing his own game here

I have in the past forced myself to play games in shitty gyms. It lasted a season or two before I quit. I prefer the gym to be brain free now.

T Roper wrote:

I have in the past forced myself to play games in shitty gyms. It lasted a season or two before I quit. I prefer the gym to be brain free now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nauLgZISozs

Pavel Burov wrote:

Just to be less cryptic.

There are different approaches how to utilize your rock climbing gym environment. You can play a kiddish game "grab those fancy colored pieces of plastic to make it to the top". It is you playing some kind of stupid kiddish game. No excuses your gym does not provide a perfect training environment are allowed. You are there to play your games. So play your games. And have your kiddish fun.

On the other hand you can train there pushing yourself to overcome your shortcomings. You define your rules. The only rule is to get better. You are there to improve your climbing and to reach your goals.

The choice is yours.

Training is hard. Getting better is hard. If you wanna play your kiddish games go and play your kiddish games. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish intellect. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish behaviour. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish emotions. It is all yours. Be honest.

It is all about your focus. Focus on the process of getting better and get better. Focus on stupid kiddish games and become a stupid kid playing stupid kiddish games. The choice is yours. Just be honest.

If your gym sets predominantly modern "comp" gymnastic trickery, with low hold density, and tons of stupid volumes it can be incredibly hard to make movement in the way one does on real rock. That's a trend that's becoming entirely too common in many US gyms. 

Normally my gym sets quite a few problems which fall in that power company post up thread about real rock problems making bad gym routes. Things that require precise body position in the way goofy granite boulders do. The most recent set the decided to go almost all comp style on a vertical and slab wall. I'll still climb the problems, who knows maybe one day I'll end up stemmed across a dihedral with both feet on the right side, hands on the left, with my face down toward the ground..........somehow I doubt bothering with that one is ever going to help me on rock though. 

Nick Drake wrote:

somehow I doubt bothering with that one is ever going to help me on rock though. 

Those gymnastics exercises translate just perfect to outdoors climbs. The huge problem is footwork. Outdoors footwork is everything about precision, speed, and dynamic. It is mostly "at least  two steps per hand move". Indoors setting tends to push you to make huge highsteps in between huge luxury footholds. It is a real challenge to work foot technique  indoors.

Nothing kiddish about wanting better / more diverse route setting when I’m a longstanding member of the gym. Using holds from adjacent routes is often impractical/impossible due to low hold density (see earlier discussion re: same colored holds vs. tape). 

In any event I’m largely satisfied with my local gyms’ setting; my original comments were about how it could go from “great” to “excellent”. 

Nick Drake wrote:

, who knows maybe one day I'll end up stemmed across a dihedral with both feet on the right side, hands on the left, with my face down toward the ground..........somehow I doubt bothering with that one is ever going to help me

The Quarryman see 4:56

Pavel Burov wrote:

Those gymnastics exercises translate just perfect to outdoors climbs. The huge problem is footwork. Outdoors footwork is everything about precision, speed, and dynamic. It is mostly "at least  two steps per hand move". Indoors setting tends to push you to make huge highsteps in between huge luxury footholds. It is a real challenge to work foot technique  indoors.

So true. I used to set a my local gym. One idea I had for a route (though I haven't set any routes since I got it) was to get to the top & remove the old route but bring a bucketfull of small footholds. On the way down (usually just to take out the old route) I would be peppering the wall with footholds.

Then the final setting of the route would be to add handholds as desired so that something can be accomplish with existing footholds. I thought I would give a different character than usual route. I'm not sure it would get the go-ahead thought - I can probably set in about the same time overall as an usual route, but it would use up a sizeable portion of footholds of a given color, so other setters may not be so happy....

Pavel Burov wrote:

Just to be less cryptic.

There are different approaches how to utilize your rock climbing gym environment. You can play a kiddish game "grab those fancy colored pieces of plastic to make it to the top". It is you playing some kind of stupid kiddish game. No excuses your gym does not provide a perfect training environment are allowed. You are there to play your games. So play your games. And have your kiddish fun....

Training is hard. Getting better is hard. If you wanna play your kiddish games go and play your kiddish games. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish intellect. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish behaviour. Do not blame your gym for your kiddish emotions. It is all yours. Be honest.

Trying to figure out if this is a language thing or a dickish thing. Or maybe both? Please clarify. 

AndrewArroz wrote:

Trying to figure out if this is a language thing or a dickish thing. Or maybe both? Please clarify. 

It is about games people play.

Pavel Burov wrote:

It is about games people play.

https://youtu.be/SLi7Ljcy6n8?t=2s

Nick Drake wrote:

If your gym sets predominantly modern "comp" gymnastic trickery, with low hold density, and tons of stupid volumes it can be incredibly hard to make movement in the way one does on real rock. That's a trend that's becoming entirely too common in many US gyms. 

Normally my gym sets quite a few problems which fall in that power company post up thread about real rock problems making bad gym routes. Things that require precise body position in the way goofy granite boulders do. The most recent set the decided to go almost all comp style on a vertical and slab wall. I'll still climb the problems, who knows maybe one day I'll end up stemmed across a dihedral with both feet on the right side, hands on the left, with my face down toward the ground..........somehow I doubt bothering with that one is ever going to help me on rock though. 

So true! Our gym used to set, as default, bouldering problems that allowed the use of jibs. They were small and slick, because they stayed on the wall continuously, not being replaced between sets. You had to have precise footwork and good use of pressure and tension to stay on those footholds. And we used to set at high density, often using the same hold for more than one problem. Once in a while people would set a tracking problem, but I would estimate that the rate used to be 20% tracking to 80% of "untaped jibs are on".

Then we switched to single-color setting, and tracking only. Now the routes are more spaced out, and the footholds are the bright new grippy holds, there are very few of them,  and they are HUGE. Oh, and volumes... volumes are the shit! Let's put more of them on! It used to be that jibs were on by default , but people apparently find it too confusing these days... now the volumes are on! And if you happen to be short, and can't use this one giant volume as foothold... tough luck. What, you can't dyno from an undercling to a gaston? On a V2? Oh, stop whining already!

Lena chita wrote:

So true! Our gym used to set, as default, bouldering problems that allowed the use of jibs. They were small and slick, because they stayed on the wall continuously, not being replaced between sets. You had to have precise footwork and good use of pressure and tension to stay on those footholds. And we used to set at high density, often using the same hold for more than one problem. Once in a while people would set a tracking problem, but I would estimate that the rate used to be 20% tracking to 80% of "untaped jibs are on".

Then we switched to single-color setting, and tracking only. Now the routes are more spaced out, and the footholds are the bright new grippy holds, there are very few of them,  and they are HUGE. Oh, and volumes... volumes are the shit! Let's put more of them on! It used to be that jibs were on by default , but people apparently find it too confusing these days... now the volumes are on! And if you happen to be short, and can't use this one giant volume as foothold... tough luck. What, you can't dyno from an undercling to a gaston? On a V2? Oh, stop whining already!

That is what I have experienced at almost every monochromatic gym.

Brendan N wrote:

The Quarryman see 4:56

I love Johnny Dawes, but I don't think I'm every flying across the pond to climb slate :)

Pavel Burov wrote:

Those gymnastics exercises translate just perfect to outdoors climbs. The huge problem is footwork. Outdoors footwork is everything about precision, speed, and dynamic. It is mostly "at least  two steps per hand move". Indoors setting tends to push you to make huge highsteps in between huge luxury footholds. It is a real challenge to work foot technique  indoors.

I agree with the later part of what you said about footwork, but the parkourish comp problems I just don't see any carry over to rock. The precise body position/balance between those giant sloper borderline volume holds, that totally translates.