Requesting "Ladies Crag" forum

Hobo Greg wrote:

I'm still curious as to how anyone can justify this idea. You are asking for a space where one gender is not welcome, based on nothing more than the fact that said gender is different.

I'm sure different ladies have different reason for the forum, but here's one from the perspective of a (racial) minority:

Ladies are an under represented minority group on mp.com, and as such, have a pretty valid reason merely because the voice of the majority tend to drown out the voice of the minority. A forum dedicated to the minority group better addresses the needs of the said group. That doesn't mean the majority can't be welcomed, but it's not the place for everyone in the majority to give their 2 cents. Make sense?

FWIW, I think the bathroom issue is a poor analogy and having gender/sex specific bathrooms makes it harder for the transgender population. Remarking that one group is somehow "better" than the other is also not very helpful.

reboot wrote:

I'm sure different ladies have different reason for the forum, but here's one from the perspective of a (racial) minority:

Ladies are an under represented minority group on mp.com, and as such, have a pretty valid reason merely because the voice of the majority tend to drown out the voice of the minority. A forum dedicated to the minority group better addresses the needs of the said group. That doesn't mean the majority can't be welcomed, but it's not the place for everyone in the majority to give their 2 cents. Make sense?

FWIW, I think the bathroom issue is a poor analogy and having gender/sex specific bathrooms makes it harder for the transgender population. Remarking that one group is somehow "better" than the other is also not very helpful.

Good explanation!

I'm one of the women who doesn't feel the NEED for a Ladies' forum, but realizes that some women do feel the need. In the same way as I never considered a women-only climbing clinic to be better than a mixed-gender clinic on the same subject, but I recognize that some women are reluctant to learn a new skill in a mixed-gender group and are more likely to try something new in an environment that (to them) feels more nurturing/supporting/non-threatening.

And going on a tangent with the bathrooms, I was kinda surprised by a common public bathroom layout in Greece. No M and F bathrooms, but a mixed-gender ones, and I don't mean the private one-person bathroom with toilet and sink, that could be used by all, one person at a time, but rather a common area with sinks for handwashing, leading to several individual stalls, and there could be a guy in one stall, and a girl in the stall next to him. The first time I was kinda surprised and thought maybe I entered the wrong bathroom by mistake, when a guy walked out of the stall to wash hands next to me, but he didn't seem in the least bit surprised. But it makes sense. Most places there are trying to squeeze bathrooms into tiny nooks, and if you can get by with plumbing for 1 sink and 2 stalls, that is easier than trying to have two sinks, two separate entrances, etc.

... the online environment historically has been a hostile one for women...causing them to be less inclined to participate."What we began to see is natural tendency for men to be more aggressive. Women are more polite than men online, so that impact is heightened in decision-making settings," he said. "Men are tone-deaf in general but are worse online. They become more aggressive, more rude. Women pick up social cues online."

Geez. How about a ladies forum for the simple reason it would help broaden the appeal of MP to a wider audience? Find a way for it to happen, without being a huge burden to Nick. Whining about someone else having a conversation that you may not even be interested in? Really?

That said, I don't "need" it either, but see no reason not to give it a shot. Make it readable to all, so the public can find it. After that? Work it out as it goes. Try it open, try it closed, heavily moderated or not....

Best, Helen

All gender, politics, etc. stuff aside, the fact of the matter is that if you get a wider range of opinions, experiences, and backrounds, discussions tend to be, on average, more fruitful. Regardless of the whole PC thing, more people = better and more enlightening discussions. I dunno about the rest of y'all but my primary reason for sticking around here is to gain information and wisdom and to learn.

I think that, if a lot of the "lurkers" who read but don't post or otherwise contribute to the discussion started posting more often, we could all learn another thing or two. And in climbing, learning a thing or two could be the difference between an epic clusterfuck or injury and a good old fashion adventure. Which would you rather have?

eli poss wrote:

I think that, if a lot of the "lurkers" who read but don't post or otherwise contribute to the discussion started posting more often, we could all learn another thing or two. 

+1

And in climbing, learning a thing or two could be the difference between an epic clusterfuck or injury and a good old fashion adventure.

Aren't "epic clusterfuck" and "a good old fashion adventure" the same thing? The first is what happens on the climb, the latter is how it's related in the bar the next weekend.

Marc801 C wrote:

Aren't "epic clusterfuck" and "a good old fashion adventure" the same thing? The first is what happens on the climb, the latter is how it's related in the bar the next weekend.

I think we all enjoy different flavors of suffering that we then look back on and call "adventure". For you, that may be an epic clusterfuck. I personally prefer adventures involving heat-related suffering, bushswacking, getting lost, choss and/or vertical gardening.

Others enjoy untangling ropes, turning something mundane and simple into a complex macrame, moist suffering, cold-related suffering, unplanned bivies, getting sandbagged and other flavors of suffering/adventure.

Well, while you ladies in waiting are waiting for a forum, why not start some threads in the general climbing forum with the heading: LADIES ROOM THREAD - then you can add a subject. Guys, we can all agree to not post on those threads. 

What do you say?

Tim Stich wrote:

Well, while you ladies in waiting are waiting for a forum, why not start some threads in the general climbing forum with the heading: LADIES ROOM THREAD - then you can add a subject. Guys, we can all agree to not post on those threads. 

What do you say?

FrankPS will be the first reply. 

Best, (love ya Frank, ya know that) OLH

eli poss wrote:

I think we all enjoy different flavors of suffering that we then look back on and call "adventure". For you, that may be an epic clusterfuck. I personally prefer adventures involving heat-related suffering, bushswacking, getting lost, choss and/or vertical gardening.

Others enjoy untangling ropes, turning something mundane and simple into a complex macrame, moist suffering, cold-related suffering, unplanned bivies, getting sandbagged and other flavors of suffering/adventure.

I like this!  

All in favor of “moist suffering” raise a hand

Tim Stich wrote:

Well, while you ladies in waiting are waiting for a forum, why not start some threads in the general climbing forum with the heading: LADIES ROOM THREAD - then you can add a subject. Guys, we can all agree to not post on those threads. 

What do you say?

Actually FrankPS will open the thread

Luc-514 wrote:

Actually FrankPS will open the thread

I am flattered by the attention, but I decline the offer. Thanks for the thought!

FrankPS wrote:

I am flattered by the attention, but I decline the offer. Thanks for the thought!

It’s probably more satisfying dodging that bullet anyway. 

eli poss wrote:

All gender, politics, etc. stuff aside, the fact of the matter is that if you get a wider range of opinions, experiences, and backrounds, discussions tend to be, on average, more fruitful. Regardless of the whole PC thing, more people = better and more enlightening discussions. I dunno about the rest of y'all but my primary reason for sticking around here is to gain information and wisdom and to learn.

I think that, if a lot of the "lurkers" who read but don't post or otherwise contribute to the discussion started posting more often, we could all learn another thing or two. And in climbing, learning a thing or two could be the difference between an epic clusterfuck or injury and a good old fashion adventure. Which would you rather have?

This is exactly the reason (or one of them) to advocate for a women's forum. If having more voices and wider diversity is good for discussion, then having a significant portion of women climbers not feeling comfortable enough here to post is detrimental to that goal. If a women's forum helps more climbers to feel more comfortable participating, then it will be a good thing for everyone. If it doesn't work out that way, if it's not useful or not made use of, or even turns out to be harmful in some way, it can be deleted as easily as it was created. (I assume. Not a programmer.) 

Giving women more voice does not equal silencing men. There's no need to be threatened by empowering others. Men, it seems to me, have plenty of voice on this forum and in life. You/they will still be able to post in all the same forums you can post in now, and will likely still be the dominant voice in them. This may be the reason I've never seen a need for a men's forum expressed here, but if some number of men feel they aren't comfortable posting on MP because of its current mixed gender dynamic, there's no reason we couldn't create a men's forum as well. 

Tim Stich wrote:

Well, while you ladies in waiting are waiting for a forum, why not start some threads in the general climbing forum with the heading: LADIES ROOM THREAD - then you can add a subject. Guys, we can all agree to not post on those threads. 

What do you say?

Done.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114017687/womens-only-thread

Tradiban wrote:

Done.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/114017687/womens-only-thread

So I did it and then so many men posted that they had to shut it down. Pity :(

Tradiban wrote:

So I did it and then so many men posted that they had to shut it down. Pity :(

I didn't see "many men". Only one. Who decided what that thread should be, and that he would decide what was and was not appropriate.

"I will be lurking and flagging any men who post. I will also flag any mansplaining done by women."

I know you're trying to be cute, and stir the pot, but it is getting tiring, sir. Would you please consider hanging up the tradiban persona and coming back as you? 

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

I didn't see "many men". Only one. 

Who in their one and only post got: This post violated Guideline #1 and has been removed.

Marc801 C wrote:

Who in their one and only post got: This post violated Guideline #1 and has been removed.

Alright, I'd give trad a gold star for talent, and a cookie before he's sent to time out. ;-)

Best, Helen

Just FYI, his wasn't the one and only - there were maybe a dozen posts in there, a few telling him to basically cut it out, all of them from men from what I saw. The whole thread got axed. 

The idea was to have a regular topic by a woman, and just to indicate it was supposed to be in the as yet nonexistent "women's forum" and see how that works. The topic of this thread as far as I could tell was "see how dumb a women's forum would be?", posted by a man who asked women not to "mansplain". 

Obviously we can all see the difference, this is just for the record because I'd hate to see someone come on here and say "see? We tried it, it didn't work!"