'17-'18 Midwest ice conditions

To ALL:    I went to park last week to meet with the Supt and 'ranger',  who were supposed to be in I was told,,(neither was there or did not show up,,)   The office-desk person and the natural resources consultant BOTH confirmed we can ONLY climb in the same 4 canyons as before.  They began to talk about new access, but cut the comments short before any confirmation. Then they turned the talk to CLOSURES by next year, because of complaints by general public that the ice climbers 'are unsightly for photgraphing the ice'.  Spinning different stories to me within 25 min...!!   Kaskaskia was mentioned, but NOT confirmed for use. And the new sign in sheets just out for a week, also say ONLY the same 4 ice canyons.  Tonti, Ottawa, LaSalle, and Wildcat.  So when ice sucks like it did now, except for Ottawa canyon,   people should not be out looking for other ice formations to try out.   We have been denied access to all of the sweet ice in Illinois Canyon, French Canyon, Kickapoo, Sac and Aurora canyons, Pontiac canyon and others that we had climbed years ago.    Whoever goes out and climbs in Kaskaskia could be baited there by bad info, as a 'trap' to catch climbers breaking the rules , thus hurry the complete closure that they seem to have in mind.     Play by the rules people......dont' go to unconfirmed canyons for ice climbing this season until you have a meeting with officials and get a written list of canyons given to you by them, so we can update without errors.

The photos I earlier posted were photos taken by a local hiker from Utica. He hikes the park multiple times a week and spent over an hour photographing our climbs. The other hikers that stopped and chatted with us quizzed us about what we were doing and offered supportive comments. Never has anyone complained to me about being there. The local Utica photographer sent us (16) high resolution photos and he is more than enthused about our presence. Hopefully I will get him on the ice this year!

This seems to be a perpetual slippery conversation with the park and all we can do is be responsible and respectful to the park staff, park enthusiasts and the park itself. 

Thanks for your efforts Woodchuck.

As a fleeting question, I wonder if some of us might be willing to ask the park staff, and carry through with service projects to lighten their load a bit? 

Cheers

I've heard both, disgruntled and enthused photographers.  There's always gotta be some disgruntled photographer and some disgruntled ice climber.  The great majority of the canyons are closed to ice climbing ... I think we've shared.  And I think the majority of photographers are happy to share.

Giving back to the Park, and to other park users, would be nice.

Every time we encounter photographers they wanted and asked out permission to photograph us climbing. There maybe an opportunity to offer up a plan of even days/ odd days alternate canyons open to climbing. This may give the opportunity to gain access back to more canyons.

All for a work day to help gain favorable view by park staff. I sent an email to both the ICA and WCA about working together on this access issue over a week ago and haven’t heard back from either. A united front would show how many climbers use and enjoy this resource and how valuable it is.

Richard, hope you've gotten my email by now, from the WCA email account.

Starved Rock (as well as Split Rock and Kankakee, even Palisades for that matter) falls in between the usual areas that the ICA and the WCA find themselves working.  I think both groups would be willing to lend support to a project at Starved Rock ... but would need someone local to take the lead.  

Is there some specific project you have in mind?  It does not have to be an entirely climbing-focused project, either, but anything that would improve conditions in the Park generally.  In Wisconsin we find ourselves doing cleanups in difficult (for the average hiker) places to reach, graffiti removal, garlic mustard pulls, trail work on general hiking trails ....  Everyone who uses our parks benefits from these, and often the contribution of the climbing community is special because most park volunteers are not as fit or as accustomed to rough terrain as we are.

If you'd like more discussion on MP, we should start a new thread, because this is way off the topic of ice conditions.

Richard Vinz wrote:

Every time we encounter photographers they wanted and asked out permission to photograph us climbing. There maybe an opportunity to offer up a plan of even days/ odd days alternate canyons open to climbing. This may give the opportunity to gain access back to more canyons.

All for a work day to help gain favorable view by park staff. I sent an email to both the ICA and WCA about working together on this access issue over a week ago and haven’t heard back from either. A united front would show how many climbers use and enjoy this resource and how valuable it is.

        Has anyone from the ICA or other groups ever sat down and met face to face with the current (new in last few years) SRSP superintendent?  Never before thought we needed any intercession from them to help us keep the ice status here.   Do we know any DNR, official point of view or intent, or future goals of the park?    I've tried twice to meet with two sudden no-shows over past 3 seasons.   I've done the leg work to check canyons and meet with each former incoming supt. over the decades, and brought the written records and pics to show and explain what the ice situation has been in the past.  Made the effort over a week ago to do it agan for this season but same result of conflicting info from the other  two sources on sight, and the 'ranger' and supt. did not show up or were unavailable again.  The indication is that they want to close off Wildcat Canyon in the near future, and that is pretty much the first step to taking all the ice away as far as I can see. 

          All of my past discussions with incoming superintendents have been productive, with clarified rules, expectations and some even offering up possible growth, a return to previously used canyons, but alas, they all retired from the park before any of these changes could be put in place, Thus the 'restart' each time with meeting the new person and re-discuss the goals and intent of their administration.  Notes taken and shared here at MP; word of mouth and phone calls or letters went out in the pre-internet days of our ice seasons.  I'm getting too old to  do this and health has slowed me down a lot over last 2 years. 

          Over the decades, I've only once met a disgruntled person (group -photo club) who did not appreciate us being there. Most families with kids, hikers out for the day, are all excited to see an additional unplanned 'attraction' to enjoy.  We always have gladly informed them of the sport, of it's safety, of the fact that the ice is 'reborn' every night with more flow and refreezing.  As an educator I enjoy sharing this information, from both a climbers standpoint and that of a scientist studying the physics of what we do and the being 'one with nature' part of it too.  I have never heard people complain loudly for us to get out of the picture.   Regular outdoors people accept and understand.  Weekend city hikers find it thrilling to see, so close to Chicago and not way off in the Rockies or 'da UP. as we know.  

      I can see if the park wanted us to stay off the main ice flows for a big winter weekend event. But then I'd hope they would open up some of our previous use canyons that would spread out the climbers to more areas.  Its' their own closures that have concentrated us into mainly 3 spots now.    I dont' think they thought that part out when they closed off over 15 other formations we used to climb on.   French was the latest to be removed from use, because they were running some sort of waste water release down the canyon at unannounced times, thus needed us off the ice. But the nice 'Ice Dagger' that is in side canyon of lower French is unaffected and would be nice to have back. So would ALL of the many ice formations in Illinois canyon; as many as 7 at one time back in 80's!   Plus remote Pontiac Canyon out near Wildcat.   And Kickapoo, Sac and Aurora, all easily accessed from current trails to west of the Lodge.  

      Yes, it would be great if someone from the ICA or Access Fund or anybody with some pull could join in and arrange a meeting with the park officials.  They might have better luck than one single climber 'historian' of the ice climbing past trying to get some facts from them.

I'll just say again:

I think all these groups would be willing to lend support to projects at Starved Rock ... but would need someone local to work with them and take the lead.

We already have "someone local". Mark has already taken the lead in doing all of the door knocking at the park. I understand ICA and Access Fund don't have boots on the ground in this part of the state, but one person will not be able to sway the park. We need pressure from an organization representing climbers to do some door knocking, calling, and letter writing. The CMC, ICA should contact the park requesting a meeting to talk about the future of climbing here (or not!). 

I tried to become "someone local" for climbing at Kankakee, we put up a proposal and written document the park acknowledged and received, but still hasn't went much further from there, a sitting document on a shelf. I would be willing to do the same for SRSP write up something like this, but first getting a single meeting with the park, a few local ice climbers and someone of authority from the CMC or ICA so there is good precedent, and not just one guy to ignore.

Agree with Mike,,,going out to talk to the park officials on my own worked in the past decades, but now days it seems that numbers need to be present. Otherwise we look weak, unimportant, not interested enough.  They need to know there has been and will be a good sized community of ice climbers who are also 'hikers', general use public too. We are not some specialty group that lack any connection to the area.   The two 'local' guys who kept us informed for 30 years are now 'retired' from ice climbing.  They also had a direct connection to the fire department and were involved in SAR efforts at the park in past years.  Their direct presence today is our loss for sure.  Hopefully the park is willing to at least a sit down, to hear and learn.  I am clueless to their knowledge of the sport, or whatever misconceptions they may have, since they have not made time available to meet for almost 3 years. If anyone else representing the ice climbing community HAS met with current park officials, and had any news, explanations or updates,,,I have not seen them on any other forum, and most should know that MP is the place to post up and keep the community informed.

I realize that with the state of Illinois budgets, they have been understaffed for some time too.  And last summer, the huge crowds that would overrun the park on some days would cause a total park shutdown. No visitors allowed after a certain time of day...covered on the major network news from Chicago stations the same day. Some of their winter fest events in the past get pretty crowded too.  More visitors and more park use just shows another reason to open up more canyons and old trails for use once again to spread out the numbers.

h--new to this site today!  a friend and i were planning on driving from chicago to starved rock this friday, the 12th jan.   does anyone have any information about the conditions there this week?  many thanks

I called the beginning of last week just to see if the sign up sheet was out. I was told it was and before I could get out a thank you, the woman on the phone went into a rant and handed me a new one. We don’t have time to check waterfall, we have better things to do. I feel like they must get many climbers calling expecting (for wrong or right) that they will have a condition report. I wasn’t expecting condition info, but that maybe a major sore spot for them fielding calls about conditions all the time during the winter.

As far as ideas, I think that is what an initial meeting would help us determine how we as a community of climbers can be helpful to SRSP. They are more likely to listen to an organization(s) than an individual trying to represent our community. I as I’m sure the community as a whole appreciate the efforts of Woodchuck and Mikeyy to try and forge a relationship, but that may demonstrate some of the ire with the climbing community. We are nomads by nature and often not very well organized as a group.

Mike, you did a great job with Kankakee (and all of the access organizations helped where they could).  Too bad it wasn't a quick resolution, but you've laid the groundwork and Illinois State Parks seem interested.  Don't give up just yet.  There are some access issues I'm still working on after 25 years!  My inspiration for staying with it is Pilot Mtn in North Carolina - there is plenty of precedence for access to take decades to resolve.

(Guys, we should take this conversation to another thread, or to email if you like.  All three of you know how to contact me.)

cary adams wrote:

h--new to this site today!  a friend and i were planning on driving from chicago to starved rock this friday, the 12th jan.   does anyone have any information about the conditions there this week?  many thanks

wait will next week after the cold has a chance to re-build the ice.  It has taken a BIG hit these past 2 days..... this wknd will not be good to climb...

Richard Vinz wrote:

I called the beginning of last week just to see if the sign up sheet was out. I was told it was and before I could get out a thank you, the woman on the phone went into a rant and handed me a new one. We don’t have time to check waterfall, we have better things to do. I feel like they must get many climbers calling expecting (for wrong or right) that they will have a condition report. I wasn’t expecting condition info, but that maybe a major sore spot for them fielding calls about conditions all the time during the winter.

As far as ideas, I think that is what an initial meeting would help us determine how we as a community of climbers can be helpful to SRSP. They are more likely to listen to an organization(s) than an individual trying to represent our community. I as I’m sure the community as a whole appreciate the efforts of Woodchuck and Mikeyy to try and forge a relationship, but that may demonstrate some of the ire with the climbing community. We are nomads by nature and often not very well organized as a group.

Yes, the rant sounds exactly the same as I heard in person.  They dont' have the time to go check on conditions, agreed. And we should not be asking them to do so either. Just a simple SRSP park dedicated FB page with a simple 'ice sign in board is out.  climb at your own risk and decision on conditions' would be nice, But I truly see so many NON park sponsored SRSP FB pages and webs, that the DNR needs to take charge and put up the ice info on ONE well named and known site. If we knew what it was. we'd gladly link from here at MP to climbers.   

     But their frustration about calls is more of than that.  Their attitude towards our inquiries has been so negative , about 'unsightly climbers',  the right of the public to see unobscured ice falls, the mixed messages about what is open, what is closed, what COULD be closed soon, ,, this is the messy part that sounds mostly like personal opinions and feelings being expressed by those who meet the public at their desk or out in the field.  That needs to change and be addressed.  

     As for the other question from above on ice for this weeekend.:  My educated guess is that Ottawa has not totally collapsed in this 48 hr. meltdown, (unless someone has a good pic frm totay to show us).  ,,but I'd stay clear of its poor shape and let it all grow and thicken up over a few days to see if it gets better in all canyons with the incoming cold tonight and tomorrow.  For those who are off for 3 day weekend,,,maybe Monday will be good enough to return and find some climbable ice again.  Best of luck. 

I'll just put it out on the record that the Starved Rock SP has been very friendly this season, even when running into a staffer at the maintenance building they inquired "How was it?" I replied, "Great! Can't wait to come back"
We don't have an access issue  this year, but there is a bit of misdirection, that's why having a meeting would be great to understand the motivations of the park or what they think of all of it or their plans and outlook on the different canyons.

ALSO: PLEASE STOP CALLING THE PARK ASKING ABOUT CONDITIONS.
We should be glad that our sport is generally not resource tasking on the parks, we don't require specialized trails, signage, baby-sitting, etc. and also be mindful that the parks are stretched thin in resources in IL with the current administration. No park ranger has the time, or ice-climbing experience to tell you the "conditions", that's why we have places like Mountain Project to post conditions.
If you can't find conditions on here, just ask - maybe someone will be generous enough to update. As ice climbers we should be well aware of checking out the weather of the last few days and future to get a sense of what might be out there as well. We don't pay to be there, and shouldn't expect anything but access and not pester the rangers.

PS If we are unsightly to every amateur photographer they should put in the work to get there before us, or after. Or just photo the canyons we don't have access in. 

For a sarcastic comparison: "I was just walking past a frozen pond in town this past weekend, with all of the unsightly ice skaters and small hockey game going on thinking how unsightly all of those screaming kids with their helicopter parents are to the scenery. If only the park would ban them so I can take photos of ducks hanging out by the pond or the ice fishermen could try to get a nibble in peace."

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Also, this Starved Rock discussion is hi-jacking this thread and should be it's own discussion page. I came here to ask if anyone has any recent updates on Wyalusing, WI or Winona, MN :D Anyone??

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1672578509720192/

A resource for Winona.  If EB would only post here as well!

From a historical point: Back when we first started the 'official' climbing of ice at SRSP,  the park had written up a short paragraph describing what the sport was about, and painted , mounted it on a big wooden board about 2 by 2.5 ft. Part of our access deal was that we were required to take this out to the head of the canyon we were in, and place it on a big iron tripod made of 3 heavy steel fence post wired together with a shelf to set the sign on.  So somebody in the group had to lug out this monstrosity, which weighed in at near 40 pounds of wood and steel.   Back then, winter use in general was limited, and few hikers ever read or saw that sign, and instead we would have gladly told them in person what it was all about.   The park had two of the signs at most I think; thus we figured to purposely  plan NOT to be the first dorks to sign in for the day, or you got stuck with the signs.  Sometimes since we changed canyons often anyway back then throughout the day, we often just took off into the woods trails,   and chucked' the sign and post into the deep snow just off the trail, and picked it up to return at the end of the day.   "Somebody else must have it, somewhere" would be our excuse if observed later in the day with no sign. By about the third full blown winter season, the sign idea was dumped and not made to carry anymore.   What fun we had and what we went through back then to climb with our piss poor equipment of the day too.

Conditions report!  Back on topic. 

MN:NightFall is in and the river is frozen, same for Cascade.  Casket Quarry and Sandstone are both off the hook right now and Winona is farming now.  The tunnel route at Silver is a bit thin.

WI:Gov' Dodge is in, Lone Rock is forming last I heard and Wyalusing is in.  Any news on the Devil's Nose or Pine Hollow? 

IL: IDK, did SRSP survive the warm up?  I'll bet some of it did and with the colder weather back and more water flowing i'll bet Wildcat might reform. 

UP:Black River is frozen and crossable.  5 climbs are in right now.  Munising is good to go as well as the keweenaw-Red Ridge, and Beacon Hill plus the ice north of Houghton.  

Lower MI.  Peabody put a condom over his ice towers and most survived the warm up for the Ice Fest this weekend.

Canada!  Cold as hell again but game on everywhere.  Kama is as big as it has been in years and already one new FA was put up.  OB is fat and all the usual climbs are in.  The second place wall in Tbay is really good right now and all the usual climbs are in. The Boys are Back in Town area started to form, then stopped with the Xmas/NY cold snap.  Possible that it will keep growing at the end of the season, as we can all hope as those routes haven't been in for a long time and I personally would like to climb them. 

Adam Daily on Chucky's Revenge at "the second place wall" in Thunder Bay.