PEDs in climbing....drugz!

kyber wrote:

For me, I’m at v8/9 in the gym (probably equates to about 6/7 outdoors). That’s my normal peak though, so far I haven’t received any gains in numbers. I’m hoping for multiple sends within my range for my upcoming trip of 9 days. And maybe (hopefully) getting an 8 or two. 

I’m interested to hear more updates. I don’t think it matters whether you’re climbing at v6 or v15. 

Dirt Squirrel wrote:

V6 climbers using PED’s...

Way more younger (and older) males use PEDs just to look good when they go to the beach.

Or to grow more hair on their scalp.

Or maintain an erection longer.

How is using PEDs to get past V12 (instead of V6) any more ennobling of our humanity?

You’re asking the wrong guy, I wouldn’t say it’s a noble quest at all. It’s a symptom of modern vanity, imho. If climbing V8, which is hardishbut not at all impossible, is your goal and you’re plateau’d at v6, PED’s aren’t the answer. I’m just saying, there’s a lot of super strong, yet shitty climbers out there. 

Try putting a hangboard up in the basement and screaming more. Worked for me.

5.samadhi wrote:

When I saw the notification there was a reply to this thread I cringed lol....I think maybe having to wade through the intensity of some of the posters gave me some internet shell shock :)

I’ve seen a few people come on and off of SARMs with the only issue being when you come off the cycle too quickly. Also the various combinations I think tends to overwhelm a majority of people. Thanks for the comment!

ALso I’m pretty sure some of the posters took the use of PED as a personal attack on the sport haha. Things were pretty intense! 

kenr wrote:

Entering the world of competition means getting into the "cat and mouse" game of beating the old known drug tests, then the testing authorities developing more sophisticated tests, next the performance chemists finding new substances not detected by the current tests, or new strategies to mask the old ones from the new tests ...
and on and on.

Ken

P.S. Think of how many times in the last 20 years the bicycle-racing or Olympic authorities announced that at last they were going to really stop the doping -- followed a couple of years later by the shocking discovery that the winners were using new ways to cheat.

This is exactly what it is. How can I cycle without getting caught. Not me particularly, but people on them. Cycling is the prime example. Everybody dopes. When you get careless or piss off everyone is when you get caught. 

Also really happy this turned into into an actual discussion. 

Samadhi, you should run a cycle of Tren, culminate the cycle with a climbing trip, then let us know how it went.

I don't know any climbers on any PEDs aside from the common/OTC/accepted ones - creatine, beta alanine, caffeine. But I know at least 4 powerlifters who've run Tren and they all got massively stronger. The question for you might be if you can stay lean while on it. The dude's I've seen run it all got fatter, although they weren't focused on staying lean and were actively trying to add mass. I take it you're on the east coast too, which might complicate it (over here we're so close to Mexico, it'd be easy to get the stuff if you wanted it)

Microdosing LSD would be a good experiment, although I think I'd stick to the boulders.

kyber wrote:

Hmm well it’s hard not to get defensive about being called weak and vain but I think I’ve been a bit misunderstood here. I don’t consider myself plateaued at v6/7, those are just the numbers I can expect to somewhat easily get on a short trip. If I didn’t have a 2yo and a house that I’m remodeling myself and a job, a life outside of climbing AND I lived close to some decent outdoor bouldering (Leavenworth is 5hrs away) I’d surely have projected some higher grades. The last time I even climbed outdoors was a year and a half ago. Before two weeks ago I’d climbed in the gym a total of 5 times since May. My point is, I have a small window here and want to make the most of it. I care more about quantity than hard grades. I don’t want to spend 9 days trying to send one or two climbs. And I don’t have the same feelings about drugs as some of you do, I don’t care if you think it’s noble or not, to me it’s just another chemical in the long list of chemicals we consume on a daily basis, but this particular chemical may enable me to have a bit more fun, if wanting to have a bit more fun is shitty to you then so be it! To each his own. 

Those all sound like excuses. But won’t itl be cool when you finally send that V8? Won’t at all come with the asterisk of “minus having to make a sacrifice.”

Here are some suggestions:

House remodel? Put in a home gym. Hangboard, campus board with feet and a small 40degree woody will get you far.

Get your two year old into climbing, trust me that kids love that shit.

Climb outside and inside more. MAKE IT A PRIORITY, BRO.

Ditch the drugs, you’re trying waaaay to hard in a direction that is not going to make you a better climber

*steps off soapbox into pile of shit and doesn’t care

kyber wrote:

Hmm well it’s hard not to get defensive about being called weak and vain but I think I’ve been a bit misunderstood here. I don’t consider myself plateaued at v6/7, those are just the numbers I can expect to somewhat easily get on a short trip. If I didn’t have a 2yo and a house that I’m remodeling myself and a job, a life outside of climbing AND I lived close to some decent outdoor bouldering (Leavenworth is 5hrs away) I’d surely have projected some higher grades. The last time I even climbed outdoors was a year and a half ago. Before two weeks ago I’d climbed in the gym a total of 5 times since May. My point is, I have a small window here and want to make the most of it. I care more about quantity than hard grades. I don’t want to spend 9 days trying to send one or two climbs. And I don’t have the same feelings about drugs as some of you do, I don’t care if you think it’s noble or not, to me it’s just another chemical in the long list of chemicals we consume on a daily basis, but this particular chemical may enable me to have a bit more fun, if wanting to have a bit more fun is shitty to you then so be it! To each his own. 

I don't think it's weak or vain, do what you want. The big question is: does it help? And: does it come with unwanted side effects? Is it worth the price, monetarily and/or health wise ? Since you're not competing, cardarine is not 'off limits' in any sense. Also, I fully believe many top athletes use banned substances, from lifting to ping pong, then lie about it. You're not lying so I see no ethical dilemma. Just be careful, but it sounds like you have done your research. Personally I believe the biggest PED in climbing to be antihydral, but even that has it's risks.

Will S wrote:

Samadhi, you should run a cycle of Tren, culminate the cycle with a climbing trip, then let us know how it went.

I don't know any climbers on any PEDs aside from the common/OTC/accepted ones - creatine, beta alanine, caffeine. But I know at least 4 powerlifters who've run Tren and they all got massively stronger. The question for you might be if you can stay lean while on it. The dude's I've seen run it all got fatter, although they weren't focused on staying lean and were actively trying to add mass. I take it you're on the east coast too, which might complicate it (over here we're so close to Mexico, it'd be easy to get the stuff if you wanted it)

Well, that escalated quickly. I'm pretty sure this would work, but come at an unacceptably high price to the endocrine system. Also, I have no doubt it's already been done.

Ego preservation. I don’t use drugs so by attacking/offering “advice” to those who do I can reassure myself that what I’m doing is correct. 

If I were you I’d just respond by telling him he needs to be on drugs!

Brassmonkey wrote:

It all depends how you define PED, especially considering the negative connotation "PED" garners.  Nothing brought up so far is technically considered a PED according to WADA/NCAA regulations etc.  Weed is banned by them for obvious reasons that have nothing to do with performance. 

I think the word you should use is supplements. 

What are the obvious reasons?  Assuming you mean legality, my follow on question is- are there other illegal substances that are not specifically banned? If so, how does one end up banned and another misses the list?

kyber wrote:

1. Dirt squirrel, you know nothing about me or my “excuses”, I have a hangboard and a mini campus setup and use them. By the looks of your ticklist, we climb at about the same level, so what are you even on about? I’ve been using this stuff for two weeks! That hardly warrants your statement that I’m trying waaaay to hard in that direction. I know I’ve been successfully trolled but I can’t help responding, you have nothing to add here but your bullshit. You’re trying to oppress me from sharing my experience with a legal substance, WHY?

Hey, the whole point of my rant “you really don’t need them”

Now, please tell me how I’m incorrect? 

Lastly, if you think I put all of my damned sends on here, then it looks like I’ve climbed a total of 20 days my whole life... Reekris.

Dirt Squirrel wrote:

you really don’t need them

None of us "really needs" to climb at all.

Dirt Squirrel wrote:

> "It’s a symptom of modern vanity, imho . . .
> Try putting a hangboard up in the basement and screaming more.
> Worked for me."

So you used some modern unnatural protocol with a specially-designed device (and a smartphone app to time the protocol?) to achieve V8.

There exist other climbers who succeed in climbing V8 (and higher) without any hangboard sessions (or any PED) -- just by climbing lots and working up their technique and strength the "natural" way.

Worked for them.

So your reliance unnatural hangboard protocol sessions is just "modern vanity". 

You really don't need them.

I’ve used Caffeine on long routes, good effects for me but probably helps I’m not a big coffee fiend. Assuming weight precludes stove or flask I’ve tried caffeinated sport gels (tasted revolting, no discernible effect), coke (the brown stuff, tasted like coke, helped a little), and those cans of double espresso coffee (tasted like coffee cake, definitely perked us up).

From here

Caffeine? obvious performance enhancement for  speed performance in intensity zones a bit above aerobic.

But studies do not support significant measurable increase in speed for longer endurance performance. Might help for a last finishing burst.

But a significant part of endurance performance is mental (how much some unconscious brain module is willing to relax your "envelope" to take on greater risk of injury). So if the taste of coffee makes you _feel_ confident . . .

Ken

P.S. I think there was a recent study that caffeine helps short-term speed performance even if you drink it all the time.

Troy S wrote:

Not here to troll but just curious what level/grades OP is climbing at after 21 years of constant training and what grades are you expecting/hoping to achieve with PED use?

man this page the thread took a turn for the better! I knew if we pushed through the troll posts we'd get good! hehe :)

Me personally, I've never been anything special. I climbed with my friends 15 years ago and they were hucking laps on V9s to train for their bigger projects. A couple of them went on to climb hard 14s and one even got into 5.15s eventually! :O

I've redpointed 13a and V8 and onsighted 12b and V6! My goal is to redpoint 13c and V10 and onsight 13a and V7 before I'm 40 :)

Main thing I am looking for from PEDs in climbing is recovery ability (my recovery from hard bouldering and campusing is way lower in my mid 30s than it was in my mid 20s). And injury prevention (probably as a result from increased ability to recover).

Will S wrote:

Samadhi, you should run a cycle of Tren, culminate the cycle with a climbing trip, then let us know how it went.

I don't know any climbers on any PEDs aside from the common/OTC/accepted ones - creatine, beta alanine, caffeine. But I know at least 4 powerlifters who've run Tren and they all got massively stronger. The question for you might be if you can stay lean while on it. The dude's I've seen run it all got fatter, although they weren't focused on staying lean and were actively trying to add mass. I take it you're on the east coast too, which might complicate it (over here we're so close to Mexico, it'd be easy to get the stuff if you wanted it)

Microdosing LSD would be a good experiment, although I think I'd stick to the boulders.

LOL!!!!!! Nice Will  :D

It seems like the one PED that OP and others are actually using is cardarine. How do you guys feel about the supposed proliferation of vasculature that accompanies cardarine usage? Seems like it could be useful in ARC phase, but then again angiogenesis is part of the process of malignant neoplastic growth so it seems concerning to say the least. Also at least one user reports quitting after retinal blood vessels began to interfere  with vision. For myself currently only use caffeine but I'm curious about anything that might aid recovery. I'm 38 and bouldering is getting harder to recover from. I'm currently sending 7s and occasionally harder. I've never even tried antihydral but probably will experiment with that at least. I don't consider anything to be 'cheating' if you are only climbing for yourself, after all there are no rules: only style. In regulated competition it's a different story but I have no doubt competitors are looking for any edge, especially if there is monetary gain to be had.

kenr wrote:

None of us "really needs" to climb at all.

Dirt Squirrel wrote:

> "It’s a symptom of modern vanity, imho . . .
> Try putting a hangboard up in the basement and screaming more.
> Worked for me."

So you used some modern unnatural protocol with a specially-designed device (and a smartphone app to time the protocol?) to achieve V8.

There exist other climbers who succeed in climbing V8 (and higher) without any hangboard sessions (or any PED) -- just by climbing lots and working up their technique and strength the "natural" way.

Worked for them.

So your reliance unnatural hangboard protocol sessions is just "modern vanity". 

You really don't need them.

Sorry to keep picking on ole’ Ken here, but...

“Unnatural protocols” Yeah, you should give it a try. It’s called “Time under tension”. Nothing too extreme there.

Honestly, you all can take whatever the heck you want. It’s more so the philosophy of this discussion that I find amusing. 

Aaaand here’s why I find it amusing. You’ve just equated doing hangboarding to using performance enhancing drugs. Just... wow. One of those things would support the other and not replace the need of the other... but since I’m not trying to digress, let me digress.

Here’s kind of the way I see it. I’m no expert, but maybe what I say might resonate inside some of you. I just think it would crazy that anybody would be willing to take a drug, which may or may not be harmful, without having an awesome plan to succeed and use the period they are on this substance to the maximum advantage. Now, I don’t know any of you but I’m getting this picture that a lot of you have figured out how to maximize all your other ways of getting gains by achieving the proper balance of energy system work, exhausting all variations in strength protocols (realizing that for you that your volume is so high you can’t possibly recover), your diet is on point, you’re sleeping 9-10 hours a night, etc... that your dedication and discipline is top notch and that you’ve put years, blood, sweat and tears into it. 

In fact, I’m the one that’s full of shit because I take it seriously enough to attempt to be creative in how I solve this puzzle of climbing. That’s probably true. But, for some, maybe not all, I would be willing to bet you do this cycle of “x drug” and you still underperform so much that it would have been a waste of your time and money to even go that route because you’ve never addressed your real opportunity for growth. You just took a drug and expect better results doing the same old stupid shit. 

Or as a race car analogy, you put racing fuel in a geo prism expecting to win at the drag races. Yet you lose all the time, so you keep putting “special fuel” in the thing. Not surprisingly, you still expect to win someday. Again, that’s definitely some of you, and maybe or maybe not, all in this thread.                   

I’m sorry that it wrankles your cankles so, but I would wager that you, yes you Kenr... are wasting your time with this stuff. Congrats, I just paid you the most backhanded compliment, yet again, that I believe that you could climb V8 with a bit of hard work and not have to dick around with drugs. Hell, Take this last bit as an insult if you’d like, preferably on a full stomach and with the PED’s. Might make you send harder or something.

P.s. Oh, and to the dude who claimed he can’t recover well in his late 30’s... you need a bigger Aerobic and anaerobic capacity. Because you can train to recover quicker, if you wanted to.

Tavis Ricksecker wrote:

It seems like the one PED that OP and others are actually using is cardarine. How do you guys feel about the supposed proliferation of vasculature that accompanies cardarine usage? Seems like it could be useful in ARC phase, but then again angiogenesis is part of the process of malignant neoplastic growth so it seems concerning to say the least. Also at least one user reports quitting after retinal blood vessels began to interfere  with vision. For myself currently only use caffeine but I'm curious about anything that might aid recovery. I'm 38 and bouldering is getting harder to recover from. I'm currently sending 7s and occasionally harder. I've never even tried antihydral but probably will experiment with that at least. I don't consider anything to be 'cheating' if you are only climbing for yourself, after all there are no rules: only style. In regulated competition it's a different story but I have no doubt competitors are looking for any edge, especially if there is monetary gain to be had.

If you do not mind injections I would research peptides that release gh such as ipamorelin and cjc1295. If injection scares you a still beneficial gh release is mk677. You can get blood work BEFORE taking it to measure baseline IGF levels then blood work after being 'on' two weeks. As a mid 30 something you'll be pleasantly surprised how it increases recovery

And bahahaha at the kid that said all you need for recovery is better aerobic capacity. Just you WAIT and SEE ya punk!!!