Shelf road

Does anyone know how the fatal accident at the piggy bank happened on December 16?

According to the reddit thread, it was a rappelling accident. Improperly set-up ATC.

There is some first hand info in this reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/7katpw/shelf_road_fatality/

Sounds like a botched rappel cleaning a route; he only clipped one of the strands.

Very sad to hear. 

• If someone asks to borrow some gear I am assuming they know what to do with it. 
• If they ask for A and I give them B because I don't have an A than it is my responsibility to make sure they know how to use B since they did not request it originally. 
• If you know you are taking out someone who is new than it is your responsibility to make sure they don't do something stupid. 
• If they are someone just tagging along, unless they ask for information I will assume they know what they are doing.

Edit: the post that opened the door for discussion on how to prevent rappelling accidents now erased. Below was a reply to that post. I see nothing wrong with having a discussion on how to be safer in an accident thread. I placed no blame and pointed no fingers. Below is an answer that has nothing to do with the accident.

 If I die and the discussion of common mistakes and to prevent them makes one climber read something that saves their life you’re welcome to write that instead of best wishes or condolences.

Flag and remove this post if you deem offensive. Then I’ll know for next time.

 I don’t lend gear out to strangers. I’m not assuming anything! But, if you don’t own a ATC or other belay device you don’t know $hit. You’re not cleaning the anchor then lowering off or rapping. Someone else gets that job. You can pull your weight by driving. Hell most people that own a belay device don’t know what they’re doing.

 If I go out with a new partner that’s not vouched for by friends, which is hardly ever, I watch that person like a hawk. They miss one thing, I correct it so we both get safely to the ground, i lose their number and its off to talk smack about them on MP. 

While there might be an interesting academic conversation somewhere in there, I'm not sure this example cuts particularly close to it. By extension, I don't think it's the most tasteful idea to use the reporting of the incident to swirl hypotheticals and imply blame on the part of those who were on the ground. By his own telling, the owner of the belay device was climbing outdoors for the first time himself; he doesn't sound like a guide or super experience climber who couldn't be bothered to handle the task or properly vet/instruct friends he was taking out. 

While I think the oral tradition that exists in climbing leaves room for error and in some (very different) circumstances it's clearly the case that those with the knowledge didn't do enough to protect those without, it seems to me this is clearly not the case. If you came up to me and said "I'm going to clean this route and rappel, I left my ATC in the car since I've been using a gri gri all day, can I use yours?" I think it is implied in that statement that you're comfortable with what you are about to do. If a climber is uncomfortable cleaning a route and someone pushes them to do it even when it's clear that they're not comfortable or confident, then that's trouble. It seems to me that it's so much more likely that he (the climber) simply made a critical oversight at the worst possible moment. As an analogy, if someone asked you to borrow a few cams, then placed one poorly and hit a ledge as a result, I expect we would all understand the culprit to be the leader's poor placement, not you for lending them the cam. 

To _peyton from the reddit thread if you ever read this: this was 100% not your fault, I'm sorry for your loss and that you and everyone else there had this experience. Incidents such as these are terrible. They're among the most common in climbing and are made all the more raw by how preventable they frequently are. But that doesn't make it your fault. When you are alone way off the ground, you are where the buck stops as far as getting yourself down, whether that means calling to your friends to lower you because you just didn't feel confident, or triple checking your setup before committing to it. 

Bill Kirby wrote:

 if you don’t own a ATC or other belay device you don’t know $hit

you've never left your ATC behind? Come on, guys. People make mistakes, and little mistakes sometimes have big consequences in climbing. Not having an ATC at a place like shelf isn't an indication of shit. And someone is dead. Can we not do this same dance every time where we list all the ways we do things that would have prevented this so as to make ourselves feel like disaster struck those people because of some error but won't get us because we're too wise and savvy? 

Many years ago before I moved to Colorado, there was a nice guy on MP named Mike Sofranko. I used to read his trip reports and studied all of his route comments. He sounded like the nicest guy. I looked forward to meeting him once I finally got here. But that was not to be. One cold day at Happy Hour crag, he set up his rappel incorrectly in this exact same way and fell to his death. Mike was very experienced, I should also add. 

We all make mistakes. I'm just very sorry this happened to Drew. 

I learned a little more about him today. He was a geologist and was married, living in Virginia. 

man, i still think about mike sofranko pretty often, despite never meeting him.  we climbed a lot of the same routes and he seemed like a really cool guy.

condolences to all involved in the shelf road accident.

We are responsible for our OWN safety when we are climbing.

The fact that the ATC was borrowed is irrelevant.  We all use each other's gear - quickdraws, ropes, cams, etc.

I'm a member of the Meetup group involved in this accident and have been on dozens of their outings.  The group is friendly, inclusive, and there are always very experienced and competent climbers in the outings, as well as inexperienced climbers looking to climb and gain experience.  The experienced climbers lead climbs of various difficulties, setup a top rope anchor, and then anyone can climb on a top rope or experienced climbers can pull the rope and re-lead a climb if they choose to do so.  When people are finished with the climb, somebody will climb it and clean the anchors.  I did not attend this outing, but discussed the incident with a friend who attended the outing.  I'll provide some details to reduce the speculation which inevitably occurs with accidents like this.

The accident happened on Rob Bank Wall on a 5.10a climb called New Comer.  The group was finished climbing the route, and Drew offered to clean the anchors.  By offering to clean the climb, he implied that he had the skills to safely clean the anchors.  He successfully climbed the climb, attached his PAS, and proceeded to setup a rappel.  He made an error and plummeted to the ground.  Only one strand of the rope was connected through the ATC and the other side had abrasions which occurred as it was pulled through the anchor. After he fell, bystanders, including a nurse, performed CPR for approximately 40 minutes until the paramedics arrived.  The paramedics determined that Drew was deceased, so resuscitation efforts were halted. These are the facts.

There are several potential causes why only one strand was threaded through the ATC.  Drew could have failed to thread it in the first place, threading it similar to what you do to belay a climber.  He could have failed to get the second strand clipped through the carabiner, and thus it was able to be pulled out of the ATC and through the anchors.  There are other potential causes, too.  The ultimate cause will probably never be known.

He had never cleaned anchors before, but we all had our first time cleaning anchors - and climbing, rappelling, and leading, and etc. We are responsible for deciding when WE are ready for our "solo flight" without the watchful eye of a more experienced person.  We are responsible for our own safety by learning the proper skills, techniques, and safety checks to properly execute various climbing skills. We are also responsible to be truthful about our own skills and experience, and not go beyond what we can safely execute.  Yes, we should all try to keep each other safe, but once again, it is up to ourselves to judge and do the safety checks to insure we are doing things properly and safely.

The Meetup isn't a guided group and doesn't promise instruction, it is simply a "meetup" of people with a similar interest in climbing.  There is not a "credential cop" checking that people have the skills and experience that they state or imply - members trust people to represent themselves honestly. But it is an opportunity for the less experienced to gain experience.

I agree with other posters that peyton, the organizer, and other members were not responsible for the accident.  

@Arlo F Niederer

I'm sorry this happened to your climbing group. Thank you for sharing the information. I like to know about the causes of these incidents to help me be more safe, and I assume I am not alone. Please pass on the condolences & support of the MP community the next time you see the other climbers in the meet up group. 

Thank you Jon. Drews family was here from Michigan and wanted to go to the site, so I took them there.   It helped them to reach closure.

Also, meetup group members who were there attended a "critical incident stress debriefing" last night, where a trained counsellor from Fremont County facilitated the meeting. These are very helpful when dealing with a tragedy.

A few other clarifications - Drew was not married, but engaged to his girlfriend of 8 years. His sister is also a climber, and we discussed the potential causes of the accident.   I was told Drew climbed regularly at CityRock gym with a friend and was making the transition to outdoors.

I'm glad you reached out to Drew's family, Arlo. Thanks for the update, too.

Arlo F Niederer wrote:

We are responsible for our OWN safety when we are climbing. [...]

I'm a member of the Meetup group involved in this accident and have been on dozens of their outings.  The group is friendly, inclusive, and there are always very experienced and competent climbers in the outings, as well as inexperienced climbers looking to climb and gain experience.  The experienced climbers lead climbs of various difficulties, setup a top rope anchor, and then anyone can climb on a top rope or experienced climbers can pull the rope and re-lead a climb if they choose to do so.  When people are finished with the climb, somebody will climb it and clean the anchors. [...]

The Meetup isn't a guided group and doesn't promise instruction, it is simply a "meetup" of people with a similar interest in climbing.  There is not a "credential cop" checking that people have the skills and experience that they state or imply - members trust people to represent themselves honestly. But it is an opportunity for the less experienced to gain experience.

I agree with other posters that peyton, the organizer, and other members were not responsible for the accident.  

I'm not here to play the blame game, I don't think Peyton or Arlo or anyone in the meetup group is responsible for the accident. But I'll be the asshole to ask the question: isn't it time for a bit of a soul searching for anyone in this meetup group who organizes trips? Yeah, it's a meetup, it's a social thing, you're not a guided group, you're not providing instructions, blah blah blah. But the fact remains that you're getting a bunch of people together, often strangers with unknown level of knowledge, experience, and skill level to participate in a sport that has potential for serious and sometimes fatal accidents. You're not just going out for a nice hike in the woods, to go bar hopping, or to go bowling. If the attitude of the meetup group regulars is  "we just get people together, their safety is their own responsibility", then my suggestion is this meetup group shouldn't exist. If the more experienced climbers in the group wants to introduce people to the sport, maybe they can offer to mentor a few climbers at a time, instead of taking a big group out, set up a bunch of TRs, and just let people with unknown level of experience be responsible for their own safety. If new climbers want to learn more about the sport, they should seek out more experienced climbers to learn from (or take some classes from guides), and not to seek out other similarly inexperienced climbers. The worst scenario is a bunch of new climbers get together on a social platform, and decide they want to learn climbing together with no instructions from more experienced climbers.

As we experienced an explosion of popularity in rock climbing, I'm sure many of us have already seen too many cases of inexperienced climbers doing sketchy stuff out there, beginners teaching their friends belaying for the first time, blind leading the blind. We don't need more groups of people out there, climbing with each other with no idea of each other's experience level. We need more experienced climbers who are willing to mentor new climbers.

aikibujin wrote:

I'm not here to play the blame game, I don't think Peyton or Arlo or anyone in the meetup group is responsible for the accident. But I'll be the asshole to ask the question: isn't it time for a bit of a soul searching for anyone in this meetup group who organizes trips? Yeah, it's a meetup, it's a social thing, you're not a guided group, you're not providing instructions, blah blah blah. But the fact remains that you're getting a bunch of people together, often strangers with unknown level of knowledge, experience, and skill level to participate in a sport that has potential for serious and sometimes fatal accidents. You're not just going out for a nice hike in the woods, to go bar hopping, or to go bowling. If the attitude of the meetup group regulars is  "we just get people together, their safety is their own responsibility", then my suggestion is this meetup group shouldn't exist. If the more experienced climbers in the group wants to introduce people to the sport, maybe they can offer to mentor a few climbers at a time, instead of taking a big group out, set up a bunch of TRs, and just let people with unknown level of experience be responsible for their own safety. If new climbers want to learn more about the sport, they should seek out more experienced climbers to learn from (or take some classes from guides), and not to seek out other similarly inexperienced climbers. The worst scenario is a bunch of new climbers get together on a social platform, and decide they want to learn climbing together with no instructions from more experienced climbers.

As we experienced an explosion of popularity in rock climbing, I'm sure many of us have already seen too many cases of inexperienced climbers doing sketchy stuff out there, beginners teaching their friends belaying for the first time, blind leading the blind. We don't need more groups of people out there, climbing with each other with no idea of each other's experience level. We need more experienced climbers who are willing to mentor new climbers.

Valid question, I've climbed occasionally with this Meetup Group before and have seen some very questionable techniques. Of course other times everyone has been very safe. 

One thing I’ve noticed among Meetup group participants who were climbing in the vicinity of where I was climbing, is that many of them acted as if they were being instructed (I’ve never organized one of those events myself).   People who lack experience, or have never climbed outside for example, sign up for those events.  These groups are not structured training events and are not staffed by trained guides.  In an instructional setting  where someone had never rigged their own rappel or lower, a trained guide would’ve walked them through what to do and at least verbally checked their system.  No one should go to a Meetup event expecting to be instructed or monitored for things they are not already capable of doing.  

How is an complete newb supposed to know that the a meetup event wont be structured so their lives arent in danger? Is there a warning that they might die in the activity, and wont get instruction? When I learned to climb I absolutely assumed that the people taking me would provide the instruction and gear needed to keep my stupid inexperienced ass alive. 

I'm not blaming the person's death on anyone, but thats the problem, nobody assumed responsibility to make sure that this person had the knowledge to keep themselves alive, and now they are dead