Epinephrine: "Send It!" and Retro-Bolt It!

As a vegas local, I want the backstory from Richard Shore on his hilarious post, and most importantly - how does Hillis play into all this?

Side note:  Josh, if I'd seen those retrobolts coming right at me through my patio door, I'd have shot them with a pistol and posed with them in my PJs.  Braj.

John Wilder wrote:

Any new bolts placed on Epinephrine would be considered illegally placed by the BLM. 

For general reference, with some exceptions: 

Wilderness in Red Rock includes virtually all of the climbing in the major canyons (Icebox, Pine Creek, Juniper, Oak, BV, Windy, etc). 

Non-Wilderness in Red Rock includes most of the Calico Hills (first three pullouts).

There are some notable exceptions in the Hills where Wilderness intrudes (parts of Sandstone Quarry, the north side of Gateway Canyon, etc).

Interesting, so Brojo broke legit rules when they added bolts to Epi. So the bolts should be pulled and patched asap?

We're not going to let this atrocity die on the pages of MP, are we?!?!!!?

Tradiban wrote:

We're not going to let this atrocity die on the pages of MP, are we?!?!!!?

You're an instigator, Tradiban. 

Well it's been a while since a MP post has got me shaking all over and dripping with sweat from adrenaline. With the exceptions of replacing pins placed on the FA (one for one) and rescues, bolts should never be added to climbs. I feel that intentionally retrobolting existing climbs is completely selfish and an incredible disservice to the climb and community. Being a steward of the land and of the climbing community I didn't hesitate to remove added bolts from Rainbow Wall, Our Father, and others. Finding bolts onTunnel Vision is what got me to permenantly add a bolt removal kit to my lead rack anytime I climb in RR. As to the question of whether these retrobolts should be removed, yes. Yes they should. And the individual(s) that placed them should be the ones to do the job. I'm certain that the folk that placed the bolts are aware of this thread so do the right thing guys, go fix your fuckup. I know I will if they're still there the next time I climb Epi. In the meantime, I should change my shirt and grab some deodorant.

On a side note, everyone knows that this isn't the first time controversy has hit Epinephrine? The first time the Black Tower chimneys were climbed was with zero bolts. 

It has been confirmed that these bolts were installed during a rescue. Nevertheless, I would have liked to have seen these bolts a) installed in a more discreet location, b) removed after the rescue was complete, and/or c) installed using high quality stainless hardware or removable bolts.

Hopefully the new PETZL COEUR PULSE will prove to be reliable and effective and become a standard part of ever SAR team’s toolbox. This would be a great way to minimize impact.

Josh - thanks for the tone of your post. If more people spoke to each other this way on these forums, behaviors might actually change. So many posts and comments on MP only make people want to give the finger to whomever post them. Glad you care more about working for positive change than entertaining yourself with self-righteous bluster.

FrankPS wrote:

You're an instigator, Tradiban. 

Frankie you say that like it's a bad thing. Without me instigating these threads would just die after a few people say their thing. I bump the thread to where people can see it, on the front page. The point of these rants or psa's is for people to see it and read it if it gets buried no one's going to see it at all and nothing's ever going to change.

You're welcome.

Josh Janes wrote:

It has been confirmed that these bolts were installed during a rescue. Nevertheless, I would have liked to have seen these bolts a) installed in a more discreet location, b) removed after the rescue was complete, and/or c) installed using high quality stainless hardware or removable bolts.

Hopefully the new PETZL COEUR PULSE will prove to be reliable and effective and become a standard part of ever SAR team’s toolbox. This would be a great way to minimize impact.

Has RR SAR been contacted with these criticisms and would they be willing to use the Coeur Pulse?

Tradiban wrote:

Has RR SAR been contacted with these criticisms and would they be willing to use the Coeur Pulse?

I think adding a few bolts, in the name of rescue, is just fine. Feel free to let SAR know how they could have done better ("criticisms"). Let us know how that goes. 

FrankPS wrote:

I think adding a few bolts, in the name of rescue, is just fine. Feel free to let SAR know how they could have done better ("criticisms"). Let us know how that goes. 

I think you are picking up what I'm putting down ;)

Josh, did you talk to SAR?

Tradiban wrote:

Has RR SAR been contacted with these criticisms and would they be willing to use the Coeur Pulse?

Yes and who knows. They are aware of this thread, which, by the way, is not a thread about bolts or SAR. It is about us all doing our part to consider how we impact our climbing areas and to improve our practices.

Josh Janes wrote:

Yes and who knows. They are aware of this thread, which, by the way, is not a thread about bolts or SAR. It is about us all doing our part to consider how we impact our climbing areas and to improve our practices.

You mentioned the bolts first, not me. Still a travesty, they should be pulled and patched.

Tradiban wrote:

You mentioned the bolts first, not me. Still a travesty, they should be pulled and patched.

 Travesty- Something you would see on Saturday Night Live

Tragedy- 911

Thought I would clear that up for you.

Tylerpratt wrote:

 Travesty- Something you would see on Saturday Night Live

Tragedy- 911

Thought I would clear that up for you.

Fuck! You are right! Thanks. I think the Big Lebowski fucked it for me.

Bathroom sounds like a good beginning.Why would anyone hate that idea? Lots of people these days. I know Ive had an urgent calling or five while in the outdoors. 

If you see someone crapping, say something

That route sounds beautiful, at least as painted by peoples comments. 

jackks wrote:

Bathroom sounds like a good beginning.Why would anyone hate that idea? Lots of people these days. I know Ive had an urgent calling or five while in the outdoors. 

If you see someone crapping, say something

That route sounds beautiful, at least as painted by peoples comments. 

There is a bathroom where you turn off the highway onto the dirt road... It's about a ~10 min drive back to the highway.

Epinephrine is probably the best moderate trad multipitch in the world, but I need to visit a lot more crags in other countries to really stand behind that.  Haven't seen or heard of a route quite like it anywhere else though.

Just some quick facts about bathrooms (big part of my job so I know more than I care):

CXT vault toilets, the big concrete ones, are about $20,000 to install. Half of that is the install (excavator + crane + semi truck for delivery). 

Not everyone is excited about vault toilets. Digging a massive hole and putting in a bathroom requires some planning. Nobody wants human waste leaking into the ecosystem in the wrong spot or getting washed away.

Vault toilets have to be pumped regularly, often 3-4 times per year at popular trailheads. It's not cheap and you need a medium duty truck to get there. The road in to Black Velvet TH would have to be improved and maintained regularly.

It's another toilet for the BLM to clean. Those things get nightmarish in pretty short order since people don't seem to know how to properly use a toilet anymore.

Not saying it's impossible or a bad idea to put one at the trailhead, just don't forget the realities!

There's also composting toilets and backcountry airlifted deals but that's a whole other ball of wax.

I heard they use llamas to get rid of the composted material in toilets. That seems pretty feasible and economical. 

But people arent going to drive 10 minutes to poop. I should say most likely wont. 

The poop problem is probably an over reaction anyways i suppose