Knot Your Rope Ends When Lowering!

5.Seven-Kevin wrote:

Why have I heard so many accounts of climbers who's careers span 40 years without them dying? Or so much as an even remotely major accident? Are they perfect? No human is, yet here they are, certainly not on the internet justifying mistakes that kill people, they're actually out climbing.

Classic example of survivorship bias. 

If a climber reasonably attentive and lucky then he/she can go a long time without mishaps. 

If unlucky...

But it's a waste of time to argue with you, as your mind is made up. 

I don't know the name of the logical fallacy you are committing.

It's the conviction that 'other people' are injured in a risky sport because they aren't smart enough or careful enough, but that you are safe because you would never make those mistakes.

Frankly, you aren't safe to climb with.

Confusing thread, due to the OP's description of the accident.   It was not a rappel. 

Russ Keane wrote:

Confusing thread, due to the OP's description of the accident.   It was not a rappel. 

In retrospect, I should have worded it better. I blame the Saturday night beers.  I added "when lowering" to the title.  I figured that was too long when I first put the post up for some reason.

5.Seven-Kevin wrote:

Good thing we'll never, ever, climb together. People who accept that "mistakes just happen" when it involves your life shouldn't be climbing.

Mistakes do happen, that's why you triple check your systems, close your systems. The only mistake you make is not catching your mistake before it's too late. 

Why have I heard so many accounts of climbers who's careers span 40 years without them dying? Or so much as an even remotely major accident? Are they perfect? No human is, yet here they are, certainly not on the internet justifying mistakes that kill people, they're actually out climbing.

Well, oops, then, as we are actually arguing the same direction, lol!

I did not cavalierly say "mistakes just happen, oh, oops". 

I totally agree on safety checks, and procedures, and bringing your brain when you climb, too.

Yet. I know it is still possible to lose focus and mess up. And yes, if that happens, that onus is on me. 

I am not going to argue with you about your beliefs, they are yours, after all. 

For myself, vigilance is helped by acknowledging that I am capable of messing up and killing someone.

Obviously, YMMV. 

Hate to break it to you, but super experienced climbers have made mistakes also. 

Best, OLH

kendallt wrote:

OK fair enough, but I don't understand why no one thinks a stuck rope can be fatal. I can think of many ways it can be more than 'inconvenient' and 'easy'.

Sure, how about rapping down on Baffin Island with a storm aproaching? But there are other ways to prevent the knot getting stuck, like not allowing the rope to dangle around in the first place. And a stuck rope leaves you with a chance to fight back. Rapping of the ends is directly the end. 

A knot is even more important when rapping  on multi pitch because the fall is a lot longer. On single pitch or when being lowered it is often just a few meters. 

5.Seven-Kevin wrote:

Good thing we'll never, ever, climb together. People who accept that "mistakes just happen" when it involves your life shouldn't be climbing.

Mistakes do happen, that's why you triple check your systems, close your systems. The only mistake you make is not catching your mistake before it's too late. 

Why have I heard so many accounts of climbers who's careers span 40 years without them dying? Or so much as an even remotely major accident? Are they perfect? No human is, yet here they are, certainly not on the internet justifying mistakes that kill people, they're actually out climbing.

I think you are kidding yourself. Humans are not very good with complex situations under stress. We can juggle around 3-4 different items in our brain at the same time. Get some adrenaline flowing and it is even worse. That’s why you are thinking through those situations beforehand and standardise the simple stuff like knotting a knot in the end if the rope. Makes your brain free to deal with the unexpected stuff. 

“Tous les grand chefs sont tue en rappel”

Rob D. wrote:

I will never understand not tying knots in the end for rappelling or lowering.  In both cases, there are easy ways to solve the "what if my knot gets stuck somewhere?" problem and in both cases, a stuck rope is still safer than falling to your death/serious injury.  I've also helped people that have taken grounders from untied ends and I will say it's a crummy experience for both the hurt party, and the people helping rescue.  

In both cases there are VERY easy ways to avoid the dangers by not tying knots in the end.

patto wrote:

In both cases there are VERY easy ways to avoid the dangers by not tying knots in the end.

Like?

Thought of a few pre climb acronyms since they kinda stick with people:

ROBOT.   Rope On Belay On Tied

HOTROBOT.  Helmet On Tight (+above)

look mom I’m doin the HOTROBOT.  Beep boop bamp boop.  

ViperScale wrote:

You can't always do calculations because the numbers aren't written on the wall. Anyone can figure out the values if they are looking at a topo with all the details of lengths etc and a little math... but you don't always have that and putting a knot at the end is a safe way to keep from coming off.

I'm familiar with the crag in question, and in this case, there was no excuse for this accident. There is ample information about the crag here and on other sites, enough so that anyone taking a little time to do a little homework should never arrive unprepared. I agree on the point about the knot, but these climbers were foolish in several ways, starting with not doing some research about a crag that takes some time and effort to reach. 

For pete's sake, just close the system by having the second tie in every time. As for rapelling; knots in rope ends is a judgement call; sometimes it just increases the danger factor by getting stuck in a flake or may be useless if ropes hit the deck in any case. Use a prusik backup and both of these issues are resolved. Good lifelong habits are what get you to a natural death and still allow you to push your limits as a climber. 

Having been at the scene of two fatal rappel accidents (one strand of the rope went through the belay device after two climbers had already rappelled safely on the ropes; in the other a gear anchor failed), been blown upside down by a blast of wind while rappelling, and recently had a serious accident happen to a friend while rappelling, and the strangulation death of another friend while rappelling, I’m very cautious in rappelling and yet this past weekend, I made a mistake and could have had a serious accident because we had not tied knots in the ends of the rappel rope. Knots are for when something goes wrong that you can’t imagine happening.

It was in the Atlantis Area of the S. Platte about 4 in the afternoon. Three of us had climbed a route to belay bolts. We set up to rappel. I was going third and was to clip one strand of the rope into a Camalot on the R to serve as a directional, so we could get one more climb to top rope. As I looked at the ropes, when I began to rappel, I saw that about 25 feet of each strand was lying on the ground. On the way down, I moved to the R and clipped one strand into the Camalot and continued rappelling. As I was looking down, I saw that one strand was behaving normally and that the other was moving up (pop quiz: why?). I continued a bit and shouted to my partners about whether I had enough rope to reach the ground. Not realizing what was happening, they said yes. I went a few more feet and decided I was in danger as I saw that the end of the strand that was moving up the wall had no knot in it and the end was now several feet above the ground.  Fortunately, there was a bolt to the R that I could reach. I clipped into it. I tied the long strand of the rope to the bolt and did a single rope rappel on that.

What went wrong? When I clipped into the directional, I did so below my belay device rather than above it. As I thought about it afterwards, I can’t recall ever having set a directional while rappelling even though I’ve climbed for several decades. Of course, on lead I have set dozens of directionals over the years without any issues. So, in a peculiar sense, it was a beginner’s mistake never having set a directional on rappel. And, on the other hand, it was an experienced climbers mistake, since I had set so many directionals, I had not thought about how this one might be different.  However, not having knots in the ends of the rope was a dangerous, negligent oversight. Also, as soon as I realized, one strand of the rope was behaving oddly, I should have stopped and analyzed the situation.

As others have mentioned above, when rappelling always tie knots in the ends of the rope unless the situation is inappropriate for knots, e.g., wind, highly featured rock, darkness. If knots are not appropriate, then don’t throw the ropes.  Use any of the various other techniques, e.g., saddle bagging, lowering the first climber who has both ends of the rope, etc.

Rob.calm

rob.calm wrote:

Having been at the scene of two fatal rappel accidents (one strand of the rope went through the belay device after two climbers had already rappelled safely on the ropes; in the other a gear anchor failed), been blown upside down by a blast of wind while rappelling, and recently had a serious accident happen to a friend while rappelling, and the strangulation death of another friend while rappelling, I’m very cautious in rappelling and yet this past weekend, I made a mistake and could have had a serious accident because we had not tied knots in the ends of the rappel rope. Knots are for when something goes wrong that you can’t imagine happening.

Jesus, remind me to never climb with you when I move to CO.  You have some insanely bad luck.......

I haven't read much of this thread, but:

Unfortunately, this type of accident has just happened again in South Platte, Colorado yesterday.  Helicopter required, serious head injuries among others.  

Although there is a simple mechanical solution, serious incidents keep happening.  What gives? We need a shift in consciousness, a different way of thinking.

I remember climbing with someone I met on Mopro not long ago.  She was an experienced and strong sport climber.  I told her that when I finish the route I will rappel.  She looked puzzled and said rappelling is the most dangerous part of climbing.  I responded "not anymore". 

My thoughts do not revolve around rappel vs lower.  That argument is old, stale and goes nowhere.  So, how do we shift our thinking regarding such a simple and usually trivial task that seems to be very high on the list of mechanisms of serious injuries?  We are clearly in the era of the gym climber goes sport climber, goes... where lowering is a simple, trivial task.  The risks have been eliminated by others (the gym staff).  But, this is the stage for the very first lower off by a new climber and their beliefs and habits are being created in that moment.  

I always tie a knot in the rope, or get the second to tie in. And I really mean always, even on 15m sports climbs. I do this to make it instinctive.

Ditto on raps, even single pitch 15m raps. 

There will always be exceptions to anything (lots of bushes and a high wind for example), but to me an exception is a rare exception. So I always knot, not, knot only when I need to knot.

Knot-on.

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

Like?

Maybe like paying attention to the task at hand.

Sure tie knots if it makes you happy.  But what makes me happy is paying attention to my rope ends.  If I want a belt and braces approach sure I could tie knots, but you are already failing badly if you need knots.

patto wrote:

Maybe like paying attention to the task at hand.

Sure tie knots if it makes you happy.  But what makes me happy is paying attention to my rope ends.  If I want a belt and braces approach sure I could tie knots, but you are already failing badly if you need knots.

This. I watch beginners staring fixedly up at the climber they are lowering and never looking at what´s happening around them, how it´s possible to not notice the rope is running out is utterly incomprehensible to me.

Well, the statistics show that it happens often, not only to beginners. ( while fatal accudents because of a jammed knot are incredibly rare). Putting a knot in the end is cheap and easy insurance against a moment of distraction.  Which of course NEVER happens to any of the mountainproject heros. 

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

Well, the statistics show that it happens often, not only to beginners. ( while fatal accudents because of a jammed knot are incredibly rare). Putting a knot in the end is cheap and easy insurance against a moment of distraction.  Which of course NEVER happens to any of the mountainproject heros. 

Quite true.  But you need to ask yourself how and where it is best to bring in insurance.  Start using too much 'insurance' and it is human nature to more comfortable and take more risks.  Risk compensation is alive and well in climbing and it shows its face frequently.   

Complacency is one of the biggest causes of accidents, I'd prefer to work very hard at avoiding incidents in the first place rather than have 'insurance' against a totally avoidable incident.

I'm no hero.  I'm not perfect.  But damn sure that if I'm lowering or rappelling I am making sure I know how much rope I have left.

patto wrote:

Quite true.  But you need to ask yourself how and where it is best to bring in insurance.  Start using too much 'insurance' and it is human nature to more comfortable and take more risks.  Risk compensation is alive and well in climbing and it shows its face frequently.   

Complacency is one of the biggest causes of accidents, I'd prefer to work very hard at avoiding incidents in the first place rather than have 'insurance' against a totally avoidable incident.

I'm no hero.  I'm not perfect.  But damn sure that if I'm lowering or rappelling I am making sure I know how much rope I have left.

Well I don’t agree with your idea about this specific safety valve in the system. No surprise probably. The large amount of accidents is sign that this is a real problem.

The knot in the ropes for lowering and rapelling is now standard in climbing education here in Europe. I don’t know about America of course