"Projecting" on Gear

Old lady H wrote:

MPers? All I would ask is some kindness if we ever have a chance to climb, and to not belittle the efforts of others. YMMV, is true for all of us, and it changes with time and circumstances.

I would quite happily climb with anyone arguing in this thread, probably learn heaps and, most importantly, have a good time.

Best, OLH

Are you the assigned mediator? Stay out of this domestic squabble, or we'll all turn on you. Enough of this "be nice" nonsense. :)

From the other thread, but appropriate here: "I think people can climb any way they want as long as they don't screw it up for me or lie about it afterwards.  When they talk about "sending",  "red point", "pink point", "brown point" I just sort of shut off my brain or day dream about something else."

FrankPS wrote:

Are you the assigned mediator? Stay out of this domestic squabble, or we'll all turn on you. Enough of this "be nice" nonsense. :)

Get off my lawn Frank. Mow the sucker, too, would ya?

:-P

Old lady H wrote:

Get off my lawn Frank. Mow the sucker, too, would ya?

:-P

That's better.

Old lady H wrote:

Get off my lawn Frank. Mow the sucker, too, would ya?

:-P

And pick up the bananas while yer at it....

Is it aid if you hook a knob with your cane and weigh it, inbetwixt shaking it at all the young guns breaking the aforementioned trad rules on adjacent routes?  Asking for a friend...

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

There is no "definition" of trad. Or sport. These things are ideas, descriptions of contemporary practice. They are not fixed, can evolve over time. Influence of sport on trad is logical and thus it happened. 

Utter nonsense, they are immutable descriptions of practices and tactics. And, hey, let's distill them down to their simplest terms:

• Sport: working out hard and / or scary moves resting on the rope
• Trad: working out hard and / or scary moves while actually climbing

Those were and remain the primary distinction between the two activities and why climbing heatedly split into two camps in the early 80's - bolts and bolting ran a distant if irritating second place as a concern in that dispute.

Those terms aren't open to evolution or opinion, they are what they are. What has evolved is climbers and their definition of [modern] 'climbing'. For some time now pretty much all climbers have come up through gyms and sport. What climbing 'is' to the vast majority of you is resting on the rope to figure out the moves and then doing them - otherwise known as sport climbing. In fact, most of you probably haven't experienced climbing as anything but when tied in.

But there is, however vanishingly small, a cadre still dedicated to the other way - figuring out hard and scary moves on the sharp end while actually climbing (and falling). I know, I know - preposterous and ridiculous - who would do such a stupid, unsafe and difficult thing? Well, that is trad climbing - figuring it out while on lead, the essence of free climbing. Again, I get that's entirely foreign and bordering on inconceivable, but it is what it is (and it is hard). You either have the goods to do it or you don't. Maybe the more adventurous of you should consider giving it a trial run and reporting back.

So yeah, dogging your way up on gear? Your sport climbing on gear - sprad climbing - not trad climbing, the definition of which really isn't open to evolving or being mutated into whatever you want or need it to be at the moment or to suit your 'style'.

"Early eighties". 

That about sums it up. We live in 2017 now. 

And about hard and scary. I give the Echo Wall example once again. 8c+ on marginal gear in a mountain environment. None of your eighties friends came anywhere close to that. It needed sport climbing tactics to work out the sequence so Dave didn't die on the lead attempt. It still is trad ( in headpointing style)  

Just like a steamengine isn't called a dieselengine when it uses diesel to heat up the kettle. 

This debate is about on the level of arguing about wether the word "bank" refers a place to get cash or the side of a river. Healyje's definition of trad refers to climbers and the style they use. The usual contemporary use of the term refers to climbs, specifically, to how they are protected, and then secondarily to climbers and the activity of climbing without commenting on style. There is confusion because Healyje's use has almost completely fallen out of use, but the two uses aren't incompatible. You could sensibly say, "He just hangdogged his way up that trad climb" or "She's such a traditional climber, even on clip-ups she lowers right to the ground if she falls off."

Agree completely Bryce. The current "defenition" of trad an sport is about the protection. Within these two climbing categories there are different styles. Onsight certainly is a better style then headpointing. Likewise in sport, flash is better style then redpointing. Serious climbers try to do a climb in the best possible style they are capable of. 

This is the worst thread ever. Take it to page 12 boys.

Healyje wrote:

Those terms aren't open to evolution or opinion, they are what they are. 

Those terms, like all of language are absolutely subject to change over time. Language evolves. And when enough people share the same opinion of what they mean, it becomes an acceptable (though not necessarily the only) meaning of the word. 

Healyje wrote:

Utter nonsense, they are immutable descriptions of practices and tactics. And, hey, let's distill them down to their simplest terms:

• Sport: working out hard and / or scary moves resting on the rope
• Trad: working out hard and / or scary moves while actually climbing

Those were and remain the primary distinction between the two activities and why climbing heatedly split into two camps in the early 80's - bolts and bolting ran a distant if irritating second place as a concern in that dispute.

Those terms aren't open to evolution or opinion, they are what they are. 

With apologies to Lewis Carroll-

'There's trad for you!' (said Humpty Dumpty)

'I don't know what you mean by "trad",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

'But "trad" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they're the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

'Would you tell me please,' said Alice, 'what that means?'

'Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. 'I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

Mark E Dixon wrote:

With apologies to Lewis Carroll-

'There's trad for you!' (said Humpty Dumpty)

'I don't know what you mean by "trad",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

'But "trad" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

'The question is,' said Alice, 'whether you can make words mean so many different things.'

'The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, 'which is to be master — that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything; so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again. 'They've a temper, some of them — particularly verbs: they're the proudest — adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs — however, I can manage the whole lot of them! Impenetrability! That's what I say!'

'Would you tell me please,' said Alice, 'what that means?'

'Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty, looking very much pleased. 'I meant by "impenetrability" that we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

A bro from prezzatura who quotes Carrol, dude i wish we lived closer than 1,000 miles. And we are even the same age!

Thanks for the perspective, Wonder(land)full. Yeah yeah, looking glass..i know.

Jake Jones wrote:

Yes, I know it's not that complicated.  Nowhere did I say it was a "free ascent" if you rested.  You're rebutting an argument that wasn't made.  That's fallacious. I'm always honest.  No reason not to be.

Nowhere did I say you were claiming a free ascent and I was in fact saying it's great you're so honest about what you're doing.

If I show up and onsight a route on gear, I was trad climbing, but one single fall, and nope, sorry, then you ventured into sport territory if you subsequently do the route clean after that. 

One single fall and you didn't get the onsight. And at that point, whether you come down or continue, you didn't get a free ascent either. In order to claim a free ascent you'd have to do exactly that - climbing it free in one continuous go. You only venture into sport territory the moment you rest on the rope or gear to figure out a sequence. Not news to you as you said.

What you're saying I said isn't what I said and it's a bit frustrating.  I know what a free ascent is.  I know, by definition what is "ok" in "trad" climbing and what isn't.  Never said anything to the contrary, although you're making that fallacious assertion that I did.  Please don't do that.

I'm wasn't. I was commenting on Ted's attempt to strawman saying resting isn't aid so it's fair game in free climbing which you also replied to. 

You clearly stated why you were aiding through a sequence, which is again being forthright and honest which is cool, in the context of this discussion I was simply reiterating that that, and any form of working out sequences while not climbing on the sharp end isn't trad - not saying you were saying you were claiming otherwise. You were very clear that you make a deliberate decision to use that aid tactic which is entirely cool so long a you are upfront and honest about your methods as you were. It's only an issue if someone does that, then sends, and claims they did a trad free ascent - which you didn't and aren't.

Again, I get that most of folks here have a hard time with the very idea and concept of not resting to figure out the hard and scary bits. You are clearly not one of those people. 

In the end, no amount of bending and distorting reality will ever change the definition of a free ascent or that trad climbing by definition means figuring out such without resting. Period.

Folks are entirely free to climb however they want, and to call it what you will, but you're kidding yourself if you claim a free trad ascent after dogging your way up a route on gear (which Jake, to his credit,  is explicitly not doing).

Oh lord, i find the need, the NEED to weigh in here.

SO if i understand it, if you weight the rope it is a sport climb, but if you do it free on gear it is trad. We are not speaking of bolted routes. 

So i can climb the route and ‘project’ it on gear and it is a sport route, and then lower off (rap) and then do it free and it is a trad line? 

So where in the description of the route on MP does that leave us? Specifically where we, when posting new routes, describe it as either sport OR trad. 

Again, we have (d)evolved into semantics. This is 2017 on a site called Mountain Project. I think the hole (sic) thread needs to move over to Super Taco.

;0

Healyje wrote:

I'm wasn't. I was commenting on Ted's attempt to strawman saying resting isn't aid so it's fair game in free climbing which you also replied to. 

I don’t think you quite understood what I was arguing or why I was strawmanning Guy’s argument.  When you say “aid” when referring to climbing, the immediate connotation is “aid climbing,” aka pulling on gear.  No one is arguing that using the rope to rest isn’t helping (or “aiding”) you or that it’s “fair game” in the sense that one would count dogging your way up as a clean send.  That was a completely separate issue of putting personal safety before silly notions of ethics and pride.  Whether you take or fall, the clean send is ruined, so you may as well do what will most likely get you back home alive (sometimes this is taking, sometimes this is falling).

I would call taking on a trad route an unsuccessful free attempt, not “aid climbing.”  That is quite honesty insulting to people who actually do aid climbing.  As you said, honesty is what is important, and I wouldn't claim a free ascent if I took or fell on it...but calling it “aid” or “sport climbing” is just silly.

Muscrat wrote:

SO if i understand it, if you weight the rope it is a sport climb, but if you do it free on gear it is trad. We are not speaking of bolted routes. 

You don't understand it. If you rest on the rope to figure out the hard and / or scary bits you are sport, rather than trad, climbing and if you subsequently do a clean ascent after sussing out the hard / scary bits dogging on the rope then it isn't a free trad ascent - that you happen to be doing it on gear is entirely irrelevant. The climb itself is simply what it is, and if you're using gear then it clearly isn't a sport route. Tactics, route - the former doesn't define the latter, it defines what you're doing on the route. No bolts, trad route; dogging up it to figure out the moves, sport climbing. Capisce?

So i can climb the route and ‘project’ it on gear and it is a sport route, and then lower off (rap) and then do it free and it is a trad line? 

See above.

Healyje wrote:

You don't understand it. If you rest on the rope to figure out the hard and / or scary bits you are sport, rather than trad, climbing and if you subsequently do a clean ascent after sussing out the hard / scary bits dogging on the rope then it isn't a free trad ascent - that you happen to be doing it on gear is entirely irrelevant. The climb itself is simply what it is, and if you're using gear then it clearly isn't a sport route. Tactics, route - the former doesn't define the latter, it defines what you're doing on the route. No bolts, trad route; dogging up it to figure out the moves, sport climbing. Capisce?

See above.

Hence, when i list a new climb on MP which i projected to figure out, i list it as a sport route under descriptions? And when someone shows up with draws at the crag, and sees that it is in fact a climb in which you need gear.....again, language/description is important in this case.

I think someone upthread pointed out that the Dawn Wall in this criteria is a sport route. Really?

So Healyje, are you saying that a Redpoint is impossible when trad climbing?  What if you suss out the beta by falling repeatedly?