"Projecting" on Gear

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Your ability to talk down onto every type of climbing that you aren't into is absolutely amazing. 

So, is that a no on climbing something more challenging than the SE Corner out at Beacon?

Ted Pinson wrote:Ok, but you’re still taking and weighting the rope, and not all pitches have a clearly defined stopping point if the anchors are gear.  Let’s say someone stops and takes then decides to build an anchor and belay up their second; does that suddenly make what they climbed previously a free ascent?

Actually yes .... the porton they climbed without hanging... then they set up a anchor... is FREE. You can climb and hang- then set a anchor at the point where you hung- and call that free. IMHO that is bad style.... When Skinner and Painia (sp) did the first FREE ascent of the Salathe Wall.... the fact that they installed a bolted anchor mid-pitch caused a whole ton of folks to raise eyebrows... asking the question- "why, could they not get past that little 10 foot section???"    

"  Why not use the method of ascending (pulling on rocks vs pulling on gear) as the criteria?  No one is saying we should count dogging your way up as a free ascent (aka send), but you’re still free climbing."

I do not understand your question.  --  pulling on rocks vs pulling on gear is the criteria for what is free and what is aid. .....  having the rope hold you is the same thing as pulling on the gear. That is aid. 

Guy, when you take, the rope is holding you, but it's not pulling you up the route.  You are not weighting the rope when you're actually making any of the moves, and you still have to do each move using only your hands and feet.  "French Free," as I understand it, is grabbing draws or pro with your hands and pulling up on them, which is definitely aid.  How is having the rope hold you the same as pulling on gear?

Joe Healy, why don't you climb one of these routes that you slag off but can't actually do (I could name a couple of them you don't like at Beacon) THEN open your mouth on someone else's climbing ability...

Ted Pinson wrote:

Guy, when you take, the rope is holding you, but it's not pulling you up the route.  You are not weighting the rope when you're actually making any of the moves, and you still have to do each move using only your hands and feet.  "French Free," as I understand it, is grabbing draws or pro with your hands and pulling up on them, which is definitely aid.  How is having the rope hold you the same as pulling on gear?

Seriously? It's called a REST. It can eliminate the pump. It can be like starting fresh, from the ground.

Weighting the rope is the same as weighting gear: aid

Jon Rhoderick wrote:

Joe Healy, why don't you climb one of these routes that you slag off but can't actually do (I could name a couple of them you don't like at Beacon) THEN open your mouth on someone else's climbing ability...

Have at it Jon, do name whatever you like. 

And what routes have I slagged? Please, do tell. 

And exactly when did I comment on someone else's climbing ability? 

Inquiring minds and all...

Marc801 C wrote:

Seriously? It's called a REST. It can eliminate the pump. It can be like starting fresh, from the ground.

Weighting the rope is the same as weighting gear: aid

Ok, but is that the same as pulling on gear?  I’m having trouble seeing how projecting a route is “aid climbing.”  I don’t disagree that hanging on the rope “aids” you, but that is not the same as actually pulling yourself up with the rope and/or gear (aid climbing).

Ted Pinson wrote:

Ok, but is that the same as pulling on gear? ... I don’t disagree that hanging on the rope “aids” you, but that is not the same as actually pulling yourself up with the rope and/or gear (aid climbing).

Yes. In both instances it provides aid: pulling on gear aids upward progress; sitting on the rope gives a much needed rest which lets your muscles recover which aids upward progress. Conceptually they are identical.

 I’m having trouble seeing how projecting a route is “aid climbing.” 

Seems like only one or two people hear are so obstinately dogmatic to claim this. When you're projecting (man I hate that verbified word) a route, you're falling and hanging all over the place as part of learning the moves and connecting the blocks. Yes, in a semantic sense it's aid, but during that phase you're not attempting a free, clean ascent anyway. Yes, it's a sport climbing tactic, but to state that it isn't trad is bs since that tactic has been around and established as a valid means ever since the early 70's. Consider even that there are classic trad routes in the Gunks that were put in and pre protected on rappel but never aided (the bolts on the top half of P2 of Arrow, the original 5 pitons on Pas De Deux, et al)

Marc801 C wrote:

Yes, it's a sport climbing tactic, but to state that it isn't trad is bs since that tactic has been around and established as a valid means ever since the early 70's. 

It's a sport climbing tactic and by definition isn't trad. Rest and your free ascent is over regardless of whether you choose to carry on or go back down for another go. You either get it onsight or not and got it in a later go - if you don't do it clean without a rest you didn't do it in trad climbing. You're either capable of doing a pitch without a rest or not. Those free ethics of the '70s are what define trad - and also why we call it 'free' climbing' as in free of aid and rests. It isn't rocket science and there's no bs about it. And saying you did a route when you rested on it was the primary point of contention with sport climbing and why we call it sport climbing - not the bolts.

Consider even that there are classic trad routes in the Gunks that were put in and pre protected on rappel but never aided (the bolts on the top half of P2 of Arrow, the original 5 pitons on Pas De Deux, et al)

Both were put up in '60 and '59 respectively - how they were established at that time has nothing to do with the definition of trad. How they are climbed does.

In my opinion, get skilled at placing gear and get comfortable falling on it as soon as you can.  It'll open a huge new realm of climbing to you.  Recently, I've been taking lots of whips on trad lines on my projects.  It's really gotten my head in the game for projecting on trad lines instead of sport.  I also been aiding through crux sequences on small gear to help me learn new beta otherwise inaccessible to me.  I love it.  One of my projects, I've been taking 20 foot whippers on a bomber cam and it's so much fun.  Be safe out there and wear a helmet!

Jake Jones wrote:

Either way, the rope is holding you and you're no longer climbing.  Are you saying that by your definition if you take, it's aid, but if you fall it's not?  That's where I get foggy on what you're saying.

It's not that complicated, if you rest or fall your free ascent is over. The trad ethic is to come back down and either pull the rope or not, but to do it the pitch clean. Resting and carrying on is explicitly not that and you didn't get the route if you rested on it and then carried on - it's the definition of a 'free ascent'.

But if I'm trying to free a route that's hard or scary for me, and I rest in the middle of it to work out a sequence, I don't call it aiding, I'm working the route so that I can free it.  

I don't call it aiding either, I call it sport climbing or sprad climbing if you're doing it on gear. What it isn't is trad climbing.

Sure, not the best style, and yes, definitely "sport" tactics...

The fact you recognize that is all to the good.

But I've never been dishonest about my methods, and my main goal when I go out is to have fun, and get a little better and climb a little harder than the last time I went out.  I do that by working routes. 

All good given you are honest about your methods and tactics. You can certainly sport climb on gear, but "working routes" that way - resting to work out sequences and eventually doing a route clean or 'red pointing' it is the very definition of sport climbing and isn't at all what trad climbing is about. Trad climbing is about working out the sequences - however hard or scary - on lead, while climbing. And look, that's not and never was easy, and I do get that it's completely antithetical and foreign to most folks these day because their initial gym/sport roots, but it is what it is and the disparity between these tactics / approaches to leading is exactly why the climbing world bifurcated in two. Do one, do the other, blend them into sprad - it's all good so long as you are honest about it as you say. 

If I show up with aiders, hooks, a shit ton of gear and a clear schedule, then it's aiding.  So, I guess I agree partially with what you're saying.

This whole strawman of attempting to compare aiding and resting and saying you're not aiding so resting is somehow ok in trad is nonsense. Aiding is aiding, french free is french free, and resting is resting. If you advance on the rock by standing on a piece via slings or aiders you're aid climbing; if you're pulling on gear you're french freeing; if you're dogging your way up a pitch you're sport climbing, it just happens to be on gear. There's really no equivocation or gray areas of any kind about it. Trad / free climbing is by definition not aiding, not frenching and not resting your way up a pitch. It's start at the bottom and cleanly climbing a pitch with no rests (for any reason) - either a person can do that or not.

SmithVentures wrote:

...I also been aiding through crux sequences on small gear to help me learn new beta otherwise inaccessible to me...

Ditto - definitely also not trad climbing, but for sure all good and fun so long as you're honest about it as Jake says. 

Guy Keesee wrote:

and if you take anyplace on a TRAD climb... that is a free climb... you used aid-  you did not climb the route "free".

Shoot... this is not some complicated theory. 

One ether free climbed the route or aid climbed the route. .... or bailed off of the route.

Wow, I'm a far more experienced aid climber than I realized....

Definitions for Eli-

Climbing- find something kind of steep and climb up. Usually involves both hands, might include ropes, cams, bolts, nuts, and a partner or two. The only rules are don't mess up the environment and play well with other climbers.

Trad climbing- primarily practiced on the internet. Originally an activity that celebrated personal freedom, but now characterized by a strict list of rules loosely modeled on the attitudes of American climbers in the early 70s. Further defined by whoever shouts loudest or longest. Ideal for broadcasting one's superiority over hikers, tourists and most importantly, "climbers."

There is no "definition" of trad. Or sport. These things are ideas, descriptions of contemporary practice. They are not fixed, can evolve over time. Influence of sport on trad is logical and thus it happened. 

Healey's dogmatic "definition" is not shared widely. I gave the example of Echo Wall on Ben Nevis. One of the most difficult (and very dangerous) trad climbs. Dave McLeod describes his climb as a trad climb. There are thousends of trad climbs opened an repeated with similar sport climbing tactics. 

The Brits subdivide trad in several categories. On sight, ground up, but also headpointing which uses sport climbing tactics like rehearsel on toprope. But they sure lump them all under trad. 

The world changes. Always has, always will. 

You guys are ridiculous. Climb however you want, but resting doesn't mean you didn't climb a route. It means you didn't redpoint it, or style it or or climb it clean or whatever hip word you want. But if someone climbs to the top of a route, they--by definition--"climbed" the route. If someone is trad climbing, and takes, they don't instantly become a sport climber on the route as you're suggesting! It's like the old crusties here aged enough to became millennial MEMErs with their silly definitions. If you leave the ground "trad climbing" you do not become a sport climber mid-route by taking haha. If you don't use gear to make a move, you still free climbed it. You may not do it clean--with a mid-way rest--but you still got to the top. That was your goal and you accomplished it. If your goal is to climb it clean, then try again. 

What if I build a belay midway because I get tired? Does that still count? What if I link two pitches as one, and you climb it in two? Are you an aid climber now!?! Don't answer these questions.. just recognize how ridiculous this petty definition debate is. Go outside and have fun.

get off my yard/route you damned whippersnappers!

Ancent wrote:

You guys are ridiculous. Climb however you want, but resting doesn't mean you didn't climb a route. It means you didn't redpoint it, or style it or or climb it clean or whatever hip word you want. But if someone climbs to the top of a route, they--by definition--"climbed" the route. If someone is trad climbing, and takes, they don't instantly become a sport climber on the route as you're suggesting! It's like the old crusties here aged enough to became millennial MEMErs with their silly definitions. If you leave the ground "trad climbing" you do not become a sport climber mid-route by taking haha. If you don't use gear to make a move, you still free climbed it. You may not do it clean--with a mid-way rest--but you still got to the top. That was your goal and you accomplished it. If your goal is to climb it clean, then try again. 

What if I build a belay midway because I get tired? Does that still count? What if I link two pitches as one, and you climb it in two? Are you an aid climber now!?! Don't answer these questions.. just recognize how ridiculous this petty definition debate is. Go outside and have fun.

This thread is now closed. Kaput. Finished. 

Now everyone jstfu!

(I wish)

What if I build a belay midway because I get tired? Does that still count?

This right here.  

I had the same thought earlier, but expanded ad nauseum.  What if I built a belay every 10'?  Can I then free my new 20 pitch route in sections??!?

Jon Rhoderick wrote:

Joe Healy, why don't you climb one of these routes that you slag off but can't actually do (I could name a couple of them you don't like at Beacon) THEN open your mouth on someone else's climbing ability...

Yes, it was a long time ago, but you might like to research just who's abilities you are insulting.

Then consider what routes you have on the Yosemite list.

Abrasive on MP? Sure. A piker? Not hardly.

Best, OLH

MPers? All I would ask is some kindness if we ever have a chance to climb, and to not belittle the efforts of others. YMMV, is true for all of us, and it changes with time and circumstances.

I would quite happily climb with anyone arguing in this thread, probably learn heaps and, most importantly, have a good time.

Best, OLH