"Projecting" on Gear

kendallt wrote:

I'm pretty sure we already have definitions hashed out for this.

bolts = sport climbing 

gear = trad climbing

gear, knowing placements in advance but still placing gear = redpoint trad climb

gear, but preplaced = pinkpoint trad climb.

A run out, bolted slab climb is still a sport climb. (even if it's X rated)

This is just funny, someone who has no idea what the definitions actually are,  incorrectly yet authoritatively giving out his perception of what the definitions are.

And yes, Healyje is living in the past....

kendallt wrote:

Starting at the bottom of the climb with only a power drill and a bunch of bolts: SURE, let's call it trad climbing.

One again, showing that you have no idea what "trad" means.  Guess what, bolts were used in "trad" climbing before sport climbing was even invented.

Kees van der Heiden wrote:

Sad in your mind. Not sad for all those other climbers. 

Those other climbers are missing out on the good stuff, that's the truth, and that's what is sad.

Before the 80s everything was just called climbing. This is an idiotic argument

kendallt wrote:

All those who came before us? Kurt Albert defined the redpoint, no idea where pinkpointing came from. Trad climbing has always just meant climbing on removable gear

I concede that we could replace "sport" with "bolted protection" but the different types of trad climbing are pretty concisely defined.

... and Alex Honnold free climbed Free Rider just recently right ; )

The only thing that is sad is making these "First World Problems" a judgment of "others" to elevate ones point of view (and self).

Fucking go climbing and don't lecture others they should be playing your game, as long as they don't alter existing climbs.

I give props to anyone that comes home alive. DGAF how they do it.

Tradiban wrote:

Those other climbers are missing out on the good stuff, that's the truth, and that's what is sad.

Agreed....   I think that one gets something out of climbing proportional to what they put into it. 

I see people today, who are strong and fit, start up a 5.9 crack put in a piece or two and go "TAKE" for no other reason than they are getting a little tired....  to me that is sad.

It is sad because that climber is not going to feel the rush of an accomplishment like you would if you did not stop and continued climbing, placing gear and moving on and on and on....... no matter what the grade, I find when you climb with a no take mentality, the success - when you get it- is so much more satisfying.

Somebody posted a list of climbing definitions up thread (mostly incorrect, IMHO) one thing not on the list ....  FREE CLIMBING.

If your taking, you are NOT free climbing. 

And one more thing.....  if you dog on gear, it is best to remove it after you fall and inspect the gear and the placement and loosen up your tie in knott. If you don't re-tie your knott the forces acting on the protection increase (your knott absorbs a lot of force) significantly and the stone where you have the placement can change due to the cam action. 

A very tragic accident went down a few years ago on Spider Line in Josh.... the deceased climber had only one piece in... they fell repeatedly ... over and over and over... till the one and only placement failed. 

Don't be that guy.

EDIT.... I am with Tut, I really don't care how other people climb as long as I can climb the way I wan't to, just leave the stone alone. 

Guy Keesee wrote:

Agreed....   I think that one gets something out of climbing proportional to what they put into it. 

I see people today, who are strong and fit, start up a 5.9 crack put in a piece or two and go "TAKE" for no other reason than they are getting a little tired....  to me that is sad.

It is sad because that climber is not going to feel the rush of an accomplishment like you would if you did not stop and continued climbing, placing gear and moving on and on and on....... no matter what the grade, I find when you climb with a no take mentality, the success - when you get it- is so much more satisfying.

Somebody posted a list of climbing definitions up thread (mostly incorrect, IMHO) one thing not on the list ....  FREE CLIMBING.

If your taking, you are NOT free climbing. 

And one more thing.....  if you dog on gear, it is best to remove it after you fall and inspect the gear and the placement and loosen up your tie in knott. If you don't re-tie your knott the forces acting on the protection increase (your knott absorbs a lot of force) significantly and the stone where you have the placement can change due to the cam action. 

A very tragic accident went down a few years ago on Spider Line in Josh.... the deceased climber had only one piece in... they fell repeatedly ... over and over and over... till the one and only placement failed. 

Don't be that guy.

EDIT.... I am with Tut, I really don't care how other people climb as long as I can climb the way I wan't to, just leave the stone alone. 

    

Absolutely right, Guy.

And no question, the real adventures that stick with us all our lives are not the mindless and safe clip ups but the memorable pitches and routes that challenged us mentally and physically. I encourage others to push their limits, when they feel ready.

And when they are not, not a thing wrong with "take" and "bail" or do what you will to get out of the predicament. Only when you are safe on the ground might we nit-pick your style but still be happy you made it down.

I think I mostly get it now...

Trad climbing is when you carry too much shit for the route

Sport climbing is any time  you've figured out that you don't need to carry that much shit for the route

Red Pointing is the point when your face turns red from spraying about your send

Pink Pointing is after the red point when your face turns pink from embarrassment because your buddy told everyone you climbed on pre-placed gear

Slab Climbing is when you need to change your underwear after the pitch?

Free climbing is any crag that isn't the Gunks

"Take" is aid.

And finally, I've definitely learned that no matter what the pro is like, you definitely can't project a trad route.

Eli, amazing

Guy Keesee wrote:

climbing friend!

utilize your phonez for contacting of the "trad climbing" ethics police! We need true internet hardman, one mighty and strong, to tell to us how it should be!

Guy Keesee wrote:

Agreed....   I think that one gets something out of climbing proportional to what they put into it. 

I see people today, who are strong and fit, start up a 5.9 crack put in a piece or two and go "TAKE" for no other reason than they are getting a little tired....  to me that is sad.

It is sad because that climber is not going to feel the rush of an accomplishment like you would if you did not stop and continued climbing, placing gear and moving on and on and on....... no matter what the grade, I find when you climb with a no take mentality, the success - when you get it- is so much more satisfying.

Somebody posted a list of climbing definitions up thread (mostly incorrect, IMHO) one thing not on the list ....  FREE CLIMBING.

If your taking, you are NOT free climbing. 

And one more thing.....  if you dog on gear, it is best to remove it after you fall and inspect the gear and the placement and loosen up your tie in knott. If you don't re-tie your knott the forces acting on the protection increase (your knott absorbs a lot of force) significantly and the stone where you have the placement can change due to the cam action. 

A very tragic accident went down a few years ago on Spider Line in Josh.... the deceased climber had only one piece in... they fell repeatedly ... over and over and over... till the one and only placement failed. 

Don't be that guy.

EDIT.... I am with Tut, I really don't care how other people climb as long as I can climb the way I wan't to, just leave the stone alone. 

    

So what do you do when you get to the top of a pitch and/or run out of rope?  Is simuling the only way to successfully “free climb” a multi pitch?  Or is  yelling “take” ok at the top of what you determine to be the pitch?  Your definition is silly and not broadly applicable.  If you are making upward progress only using rock features, you are free climbing.  French free is pulling on gear, NOT taking.  Yeah, I wouldn’t say you sent it if you took, but you still free climbed it.

I also take issue with the “no take” philosophy as applied to trad.  This is needlessly dangerous and can get you killed.  While I get that you’re saying “this is me, you do you,” your anecdotes suggest that you’re being more than a little judgemental.  I wouldn’t blame someone in the slightest if they took on a 5.9; hell, I did on an 8 once.  

Each scenario is different and as climbers we have to weigh the relative risks of every action we take on the rock.  If the gear is good and the fall clean, sure I’ll go for it...but if not, my priority #1 is getting home safely.  The only rule I’m willing to follow is “no death.”

Eli wrote:

Slab Climbing is when you need to change your underwear after the pitch?

Nah dude, clean underwear is aid. The steamy trousers are natural punishment for being too weak. 

Ted Pinson wrote:

So what do you do when you get to the top of a pitch and/or run out of rope?  Is simuling the only way to successfully “free climb” a multi pitch?  Or is  yelling “take” ok at the top of what you determine to be the pitch?  Your definition is silly and not broadly applicable. 

Oh be sensible and avoid the seas of absurdity. Anchoring and resting on pro are two different things and even the purist approach makes that distinction. 

Ted Pinson wrote:

So what do you do when you get to the top of a pitch and/or run out of rope?  

  

 

Ted ... please get a grip. When you get to the top.... your done.  When you run out of rope... your at the end of your rope... your done. 

Simple no?

and if you take anyplace on a TRAD climb... that is a free climb... you used aid-  you did not climb the route "free".

Shoot... this is not some complicated theory. 

One ether free climbed the route or aid climbed the route. .... or bailed off of the route.

One of the things I love about climbing is that things are pretty clear cut- you ether did or you did not. - make it to the top- or send the pitch free.

But I'm not judgmental at all... you go ahead and do what you wish to do.... just leave the stone alone. 

Kyle Tarry wrote: However, could we not easily choose a different point in history, where the type of climbing you do looks just a "sad" compared to that point in history?  

It wasn't until recently in history that the very definition of what climbing was was reduced to 'hang, hang, hang, send, rinse, repeat' for the vast majority of climbers. At no time prior could it be describe that way.

Let's be honest, you're no Edward Whymper.

Oh, to be sure, I'm no kind of alpinist. Slogging up shit dressed like the Pillsbury Doughboy and never getting to anything to climb has never really called to me. But what my entire climbing career has been about is onsight, ground up, trad FAs with no dogging, no pre-previewing and no pre-cleaning. 

Or, alternatively, we could simply be stoked for people who are getting out there and having fun.

I have no problem with people getting out there and having fun, unless of course several million bolts are required for them to do it or they constitute a constant and rapacious appetite for bolting ever more rock, particularly in alpine settings.

If somebody's version of fun is hanging up a 5.7, good for them.  If somebody else's version of fun is top-down previewing a route they want to lead on gear, awesome! 

Again, totally fabulous until they claim they're trad climbing.

In the end, climbing as a sport/hobby is pretty contrived no matter how you cut it, and repeatedly going to the top of the same cliff and then going back down could easily be viewed as a "boring gerbil loop" no matter what style you do it in.

Can't argue the contrived part, but for the rest it really depends on how you're getting to the top.

Do you think that climbing up a tiny (by comparison) basalt outcrop, on routes where you have the protection wired, walking down a stairway that is bolted and cemented to the side of the rock (defacing it by at least some metric), and never being more than 400 yards from your car, might be considered a "boring gerbil loop" and "pretty sad" when viewed in that context

Again, depends on how you get to the top. There's all kinds of interesting and constantly challenging ways to get to the top of Beacon Rock - from the sound of it perhaps you're not familiar with them. Let me know if you'd like a more varied experience out there - I'm available this weekend...

Ted Pinson wrote: I also take issue with the “no take” philosophy as applied to trad.  This is needlessly dangerous and can get you killed.  While I get that you’re saying “this is me, you do you,” your anecdotes suggest that you’re being more than a little judgemental.  I wouldn’t blame someone in the slightest if they took on a 5.9; hell, I did on an 8 once. 

Huh? It's pretty hard to take issue with the "no take philosophy" as applied to trad when that very "philosophy" is its dominant defining characteristic.

And "needlessly dangerous"? WTF? Did you get out of bed this morning? Drive to work? Dude, if you go trad climbing and you're pushing it at all you're going to start falling, unless of course you're constantly slamming in a rest piece and taking. But get in that habit and what happens when you find yourself run out and you can't put in a rest piece? Will you be prepared to deal with it? It's just a real suck habit to develop no matter how you look at it. But again, I get that the idea you're either climbing or falling is getting to be an alien concept in these days when a the next bolt is always available to rest on and the biggest whip you're likely to take is to the last bolt you passed.

And it's not a matter of me being judgmental, but rather more a matter of folks not being particularly happy hearing the sport climbing on gear isn't trad climbing.

Guy Keesee wrote:

Ted ... please get a grip. When you get to the top.... your done.  When you run out of rope... your at the end of your rope... your done. 

Simple no?

and if you take anyplace on a TRAD climb... that is a free climb... you used aid-  you did not climb the route "free".

Shoot... this is not some complicated theory. 

One ether free climbed the route or aid climbed the route. .... or bailed off of the route.

One of the things I love about climbing is that things are pretty clear cut- you ether did or you did not. - make it to the top- or send the pitch free.

But I'm not judgmental at all... you go ahead and do what you wish to do.... just leave the stone alone. 

 

 

Ok, but you’re still taking and weighting the rope, and not all pitches have a clearly defined stopping point if the anchors are gear.  Let’s say someone stops and takes then decides to build an anchor and belay up their second; does that suddenly make what they climbed previously a free ascent?  Why not use the method of ascending (pulling on rocks vs pulling on gear) as the criteria?  No one is saying we should count dogging your way up as a free ascent (aka send), but you’re still free climbing. I guess it doesn’t really matter what you call it as long as you’re having fun, but at least we managed to kill some time.