Is your masculinity in climbing toxic?

I was listening to the recent Enormocast with Shelma Jun where she and the host discuss some of the issues and experiences women can face in the climbing community, it's pretty insightful and worth a listen but one comment made me think about my own experience.

Essentially it's the idea of 'Toxic Masculinity', in that males can be forced to "Suck it up"/"Man up" and are inhibited from expressing emotion in general and this is an example of a negative social constructs males have.

Does anyone have any negative personal experiences with this in their climbing? I accept that it happens, my experiences with (male) partners where we can push one another by talking a bit of shit has been really positive though. It's a way to bond in that you can playfully insult one another and discuss the weaknesses you each have.

I always viewed such masculinity and stoicism as an ideal better man you aspire to be. In climbing that's being stronger and more importantly perseverent for when the going gets tough. It's to suffer and pull through together. I love this part of being a man.

I think importantly the exceptions to this would be 'not showing emotions'. Joe Simpson admitted to weeping when he fell into a crevasse thinking he's going to die but I've never encountered anyone thinking he's less of a man for it. Same with when friends have passed in the mountains or even after me and my partners went through hell together. Moments of extreme emotion have always come with the territory.

Does anyone have any differing experiences with their masculinity? I'm especially curious if there are guys who think it's been a hinderance to their climbing.

If you see Chuck Norris crying he will grant you a wish, if your wish is dying.

sometimes, yes. i try to be conscious of it.

My masculinity prevents my belay device from hanging free.

If I say yes will you stay home? 

Spencer Ringwood wrote:

Really, is my masculinity in relation to climbing toxic?  I'm not sure why people find it neccesary to turn everything into a gendered issue. The societal pressure of "not looking like a bitch" isn't the way things should be, but it is and it's not a big deal.

Herein lies the problem   

Spencer Ringwood wrote:

Really, is my masculinity in relation to climbing toxic?  I'm not sure why people find it neccesary to turn everything into a gendered issue. The societal pressure of "not looking like a bitch" isn't the way things should be, but it is and it's not a big deal.

I'm just curious if anyone has any experience with masculinity being a detriment. I've now often heard it referred to as almost a pejorative. I'm curious to learn about the other side of the coin here.

I value the "not looking like a bitch" thing. It's pushed me outside of my comfort zone in climbing and is part of what made me excel at it.

Who cares. 

If your motivation lies in whether others are perceiving you as strong or weak, it sounds like you're drawing from a shallow well

If men not being "allowed" to show emotions harms anyone, it harms men, not women. I'm not sure why this is being brought up as an issue women face.

I talk pretty openly about my emotions, I think. I get scared on climbs and back down from them, and I've talked openly in both my climbing circle and on this forum about fear being a thing that holds me back and nobody has made fun of me for it. There's a good-natured pressure my friends and I put on each other to not wimp out or whatever, but anyone with any emotional intelligence can see that is encouragement to succeed, not discouragement from expressing your emotions.

It's not just me who talks about my emotions, it's also prominent male figures in the climbing world. I remember a video where Daniel Woods talks about his strategies for dealing with fear when sending The Process. The Push is more about Tommy Caldwell's emotions than it is about climbing. There are two books about fear written by men, The Rock Warrior's Way and Vertical Mind and a Eric Horst's Training For Climbing covers the topic extensively.

I've definitely met guys who would make fun of someone for showing fear, but I've also met women like that, and I don't see a reason to attribute that to gender. Other people's experience might be different. My experience is that the prevalent accusation that men go around shaming each other for showing emotion is much more harmful than any toxic masculinity that I've actually experienced.

Paul Park wrote:

I'm just curious if anyone has any experience with masculinity being a detriment. I've now often heard it referred to as almost a pejorative. I'm curious to learn about the other side of the coin here.

I value the "not looking like a bitch" thing. It's pushed me outside of my comfort zone in climbing and is part of what made me excel at it.

Hell ya, I've seen so much macho bullshit go wrong. Never me of course, never.

I cry every day...

Why did I get married 

What was I thinking

Will it ever end

Kat Hessen wrote:

Out of honest curiosity -- what does it actually mean to "look like a bitch"? What image does that phrase conjure in the mind of a native English speaker? Not being one, I don't really "get" it. In everyday English I've heard the term "bitch" used for someone who is being rude, crude, nasty, aggressive or arrogant. Seems to mostly (mooostly) apply to women. Men exhibiting the same characteristics/behavior are more commonly called assholes/jerks. 

But say, backing off a climb because it gets scary or because you're tired..it sure isn't rude, obnoxious or aggressive? So why isn't it "look like a wimp" or "look like a quitter"? As an outsider to your language and culture, it's hard not to perceive the word "bitch" as inherently female, and thus an accepted general reference to female qualities. In which case "looking like a bitch" really means "looking like a woman" (in the same style as "throwing like a girl", just less implicit)?

And here's the thing, 50% of the time when I see someone bailing or psyching themselves out when climbing, they are indeed women. The other 50% are...not marmots. Nope. Nopety nope. 

It's a figure of speech.

Silly question. 

You people have fallen for the troll bait.......... ;) 

More gender based arguing........awesome......... ;)

John Barritt wrote:

You people have fallen for the troll bait.......... ;) 

More gender based arguing........awesome......... ;)

'the other troll post is at 15 pages... wtf people... dont you realize feeding trolls is bad?

In this, I am coming from a perspective more like mountaineering or very long multi-pitch, where a partnership that can endure is necessary for overall positive experiences ... what better perspective to consider whether 'toxic masculinity' has a place ...

Paul Park wrote:  Essentially it's the idea of 'Toxic Masculinity', in that males can be forced to "Suck it up"/"Man up" and are inhibited from expressing emotion in general and this is an example of a negative social constructs males have.

Does anyone have any negative personal experiences with this in their climbing?

Not really - for a reason.

One of my fond male climbing partners was very expressive.  I always appreciated as a belayer knowing how he was feeling on lead ... helped me / us be more likely to voice constructive ideas.  We had many great climbing experiences until he moved on due to physical issues.

On the other hand, climbers who exhibit that 'toxic' tendency are partners I tend to avoid for the reason Nolan mentions here ...

Nolan Huther wrote: If your motivation lies in whether others are perceiving you as strong or weak, ... you [may be] drawing from a shallow well

Because if you draw from a 'shallow' well, you are unlikely to have very many of the kinds of experiences you mention here ...

Paul Park wrote:   ... to suffer and pull through together.

As I was reading that, to suffer and pull through together, three climb partners particularly come to mind.  They are people who can / do endure when the rain comes down, when the dark and cold arrives ... all the way through to when the sun comes back up and we're still up there in the mountains, unexpectedly, sleep deprived.  Partners who will turn around and be willing to risk that again ... after rest and recuperation and some collective soul searching of course.

And each of the three are expressive about their concerns and feelings, and have zero tendency that I can tell to persevere because others might think less of them if they don't.

Interestingly, two of those three are women, though a very small sample and very much influenced by my own make up (i.e., my partner-experience here is not relevant to the OP's question).

The phrase "toxic masculinity". Simply means men are bad and need to change so women will be happier with them.   It's a total BS demeaning hateful expression that I totally reject.   It's SOP of the liberal left to stifle meaningful conversation by hanging an insult right on the front end of it.

Paul Park wrote:

Kat Hessen wrote:

Out of honest curiosity -- what does it actually mean to "look like a bitch"? What image does that phrase conjure in the mind of a native English speaker? Not being one, I don't really "get" it. In everyday English I've heard the term "bitch" used for someone who is being rude, crude, nasty, aggressive or arrogant. Seems to mostly (mooostly) apply to women. Men exhibiting the same characteristics/behavior are more commonly called assholes/jerks. 

But say, backing off a climb because it gets scary or because you're tired..it sure isn't rude, obnoxious or aggressive? So why isn't it "look like a wimp" or "look like a quitter"? As an outsider to your language and culture, it's hard not to perceive the word "bitch" as inherently female, and thus an accepted general reference to female qualities. In which case "looking like a bitch" really means "looking like a woman" (in the same style as "throwing like a girl", just less implicit)?

And here's the thing, 50% of the time when I see someone bailing or psyching themselves out when climbing, they are indeed women. The other 50% are...not marmots. Nope. Nopety nope. 

In English, the literal meaning of bitch is female dog.   Originally it was not a pejorative.   You can find it used in some older books simply as a descriptive term for a dog. Here's a comprehensive list of English animal gender words if you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_animal_nouns.

It was also an insult that only applied to women. I don't know exactly when it started being used that way, but it was a very long time ago. It was a standard "swear word" for a long time, but not one of the prohibited seven dirty words.  

Before the 1990s or so, calling a man a bitch would have sounded awkward and stupid.

Then rap music started using the term in creative ways.  That's when it became complicated...

I actually have no idea what "look like a bitch" really means.  It may describe my climbing.

Hmm I’ve heard that some people are allergic or sensitive to masculinity, but I haven’t heard of it being overtly toxic.  Might want to get that checked out, otherwise having kids will be tough!