Inclusive Language and diversity in climbing

Bowens wrote:

On the whole, I've found climbers to be more open minded and less judgmental than the general population.  I also agree with Will's comment that, if somebody wants to climb, they will find a way.  

That said, barriers to entry are probably lower than they've ever been before.  There are gyms everywhere, so many universities have climbing walls/centers, and meetups in every major city have climbing groups where you can try climbing for practically free.  If showing up to a climbing gym or your local crag and not feeling "represented" (based upon the surface characteristics of the group) turns someone off from the sport, then I'm not sure that there's anything that we can do to remedy that.  

Furthermore, when we're talking about a recreational hobby, there's nothing inherently wrong with a lack of diversity.  There's a massive difference between a defacto lack of diversity and a lack of diversity which is the result of hostility or lack of welcome toward diverse elements (whatever that may mean to you); one is sort of just an observation, whereas the other is a social ill.

Bowens, well said. 

kingfisher wrote:

Fair enough. Although, "calling out bullshit" - the language itself and the implications it carries - seem more aggressive than necessary. No one is being attacked. But they defend themselves as if they are. 

Go on. Talk about the "toxic hypocrisy"...

I'm sorry that I used a potty word. I didn't mean to be "aggressive."

I'm glad that no one is being attacked. It that means no one is doing anything wrong and nothing needs to change.   Glad that we agree on that.

Dave Kos wrote:

I'm sorry that I used a potty word. I didn't mean to be "aggressive."

I'm glad that no one is being attacked. It that means no one is doing anything wrong and nothing needs to change.   Glad that we agree on that.

It's pretty funny that there are more people talking about how "angry" people get with this topic than there are actual angry people. I still haven't seen a single post that's come even close to being "angry". People are disagreeing with each other. That's all. It's actually been pretty nice to hear from people I disagree with...

Kevin Wabo wrote:

There is no need for a conversation when the community, as a whole, is coexisting peacefully.  

I agree.  The OP seemed to raise a more rhetorical question, though purportedly referencing some other conversation that he failed to link.  While society at large would benefit from a more active discussion of this topic, particularly given the current political climate, us climbers are lucky that we have climbing in common, which seems to heal all wounds.  

The original FB thread got deleted so there's nothing to reference anymore. But here's the cliff notes version.

OP was climbing with his young daughter. A nearby climber used what the OP thought was an offensive term. The OP confronted the other climber. Then the OP posted about it on FB and we ranted about it a bit until the thread got deleted.

It was suggested to move the conversation over here because this it the home of civil discussion about climbing....   

Bowens wrote:

On the whole, I've found climbers to be more open minded and less judgmental than the general population.  I also agree with Will's comment that, if somebody wants to climb, they will find a way.  

That said, barriers to entry are probably lower than they've ever been before.  There are gyms everywhere, so many universities have climbing walls/centers, and meetups in every major city have climbing groups where you can try climbing for practically free.  If showing up to a climbing gym or your local crag and not feeling "represented" (based upon the surface characteristics of the group) turns someone off from the sport, then I'm not sure that there's anything that we can do to remedy that.  

Furthermore, when we're talking about a recreational hobby, there's nothing inherently wrong with a lack of diversity.  There's a massive difference between a defacto lack of diversity and a lack of diversity which is the result of hostility or lack of welcome toward diverse elements (whatever that may mean to you); one is sort of just an observation, whereas the other is a social ill.

Another well said.

It's a non-issue in the climbing community.

kingfisher wrote:

It would be easy if it were always that simple, Jake. And, really? You want this forum to be full of the same old conversations? Don't worry. There's still plenty of it on here. You can avoid anything that might be too provocative by not clicking on it...

No worries bud, it takes a lot to provoke me. 

- Are there people who want to climb but cannot because others are discriminating against them because of race/gender/sexual preference or whatever?

My personal observation is that the answer to that question is overwhelmingly "no."

If people are being excluded unfairly we should fix that, but otherwise the notion that this "problem" needs to be solved by climbing community is a tortured contrivance.

I really hope the OP is a troll.  Either way, thanks for the laughs.

I think you can flip this 180°.

In the University climbing gym I talk about, I often ask people their majors. The stereotype if climbers has a lot of truth to it. STEM majors, overwhelmingly so, or similar sorts of fields. I do think climbing is very attractive to a certain sort of mind, and the unique combination of a mental puzzle and a physical challenge is absolutely addictive to many of us.

But. This gym is approaching 50/50 male/female. Which means, YAY!!, we are finally getting bright women attracted to these previously male dominated fields, and, in turn, they are also discovering climbing.

Groups other than women? Maybe our educational system at large still leaves a lot to be desired for K-12. We sure as shit have poor schools and richer schools here, even though they supposedly get the money equally. 

Time. A lot changes, but it can take time.

Boise has a large number of refugees, mostly (but not entirely) non European. Wait another ten years or so, and we won't be the white bread city y'all think we are. We'll have home grown diversity, from people originally from all over the world.

I kinda like that. Rather a lot. 

Wanna know when we've made enough progress? I'd propose when prison populations reflect the population in general, not climbing.

Best, OLH

Lots of good points in this thread.  made me think of an article i read in the past, with a different viewpoint than the ones that seem to be offered in this thread.  https://mojagear.com/journal/2016/08/11/dirtbag-dream-nearly-ruined-climbing/

I have climbed with lots of women in the past, they seem to be well represented.  However I can only think of one time when I have climbed with someone who is not white, which i hope goes without saying is not intentional.  I'll climb with anyone who is willing to be tied into the other end of the rope, why that end up being mostly white people is a good question.

Jeremy Justus wrote:

Lots of good points in this thread.  made me think of an article i read in the past, with a different viewpoint than the ones that seem to be offered in this thread.  https://mojagear.com/journal/2016/08/11/dirtbag-dream-nearly-ruined-climbing/

Thanks for sharing that post. Good opportunity to see it from a different perspective. 

Mark O'Neal wrote:

The original FB thread got deleted so there's nothing to reference anymore. But here's the cliff notes version.

OP was climbing with his young daughter. A nearby climber used what the OP thought was an offensive term. The OP confronted the other climber. Then the OP posted about it on FB and we ranted about it a bit until the thread got deleted.

It was suggested to move the conversation over here because this it the home of civil discussion about climbing....   

Yes I read that FB thread as well. I won't comment on the OP's experience but I have a daughter who climbs too. She's 18 now but when she was younger a similar situation happened where someone at a cliff let loose with a loud string of profanity in front of her. His partner actually said something to him about it  and he said he was sorry. It's a free country so people can say what they want but sometimes it's a nicer option not too.

It seems like we're prescribing chemotherapy to a patient without cancer.  Maybe we should be trying to treat a different disease?  It doesn't seem like the issue is inclusivity/exclusivity so much as lack of exposure/access (I believe somebody alluded to this already).  Unfortunately, implicating the wrong etiology may delay effective treatment.  It may be more effective to discuss climbing with those lesser-represented individuals/groups for which we are concerned than the people already in the climbing community.  If you want more people in the group, it might work better to talk to people that are not currently in the group rather than talking to others that are already in the group.  It may also help to have several million dollars to supply gear for those without access.  Sorry about all the medical references... that sounded a little douchey.   

I can't believe we've made it this far in the thread without hearing the term "person of color"

Dave Kos wrote:

I can't believe we've made it this far in the thread without hearing the term "person of color"

It was referenced in the link that you didn't read, unsurprisingly. 

Climbing is a selfish, elitist pursuit that requires a lot of time and money, like skiing or mountain biking. Any attempt to diversify the climbing population goes well beyond acceptance. It's more about how to enable less fortunate (financially) to put one foot in the door and if they get interested in it how to feed the new found passion. 

Diversity around Boulder (gyms,crags), it's white AF.

Climbers are narcissists. This topic doesn't matter because we don't care. 

That doesn't insinuate sexism or racism. We just don't care.

The main thing we honestly care about is getting to a route and hope we have it to ourselves.

The real question is how can we suppress the influx of ALL races and genders getting in the sport and crowding routes?

This is the best thread the "Southern States" forum has ever seen!   Exciting stuff today!!!!

I told you this topic would be a hit on here!! hahahaha