taking up rope faster while top belaying

Ronald B wrote:

Troy: I appreciate your comment. That's actually what I started to do recently before I decided to ask here. But I wanted to know if there was a better way. 

Erroneous: I'm not making any claims about the GriGri system being any good, I'm asking a question and that's what the feedback I was getting was steering me towards. What do the Nose speed people do for belays then? Since you brought it up I'm curious now.

Fix and jug or guide mode belay using microtractions.  Light is right for that shit. 

jason.cre wrote:

Dude, super sick of them to defy science and shit.  Thank god they were in Europe for Hurricane Harvey -- but  I guess they wouldnt have experienced that hazard since they defy reality.

What science?  That chart?  Laughable. 

There's probably a couple NIAD climbers here on MP.  start a new thread.  

NIAD belay advice or something, you might actually get a real answer (if your lucky)

I would be interested as well to know

best guess. Prob something light

On further research I actually discovered that NAID types often bring two GGs, for the leader to self belay when short fixing though, not for the toprope value.  And use of micro traxion as a belay device seems to be the gear evolution for the pros, and perhaps the answer for Ronald's use case.  Belaying off the anchor would certainly be smoother/easier using a ball bearing pulley.  I'm gonna stick with the guide mode for now, as I've never been outrun by a follower on vertical terrain using that method.  if they want to haul ass on low angle/.low risk terrain, I generally switch to a hip or friction belay.

When your partner insists on the Grigri, well, let him carry it. Then you can both use it for belaying the follower while using the ATC for the leader. Having the cake and eating it at the same time.

For the rapel, your partner will have to carry an extra device probably, but an extra ATC doesn't really weigh a lot.

Erroneous Publicus wrote:

On further research I actually discovered that NAID types often bring two GGs, for the leader to self belay when short fixing though, not for the toprope value.  And use of micro traxion as a belay device seems to be the gear evolution for the pros, and perhaps the answer for Ronald's use case.  Belaying off the anchor would certainly be smoother/easier using a ball bearing pulley. 

Petzl takes a different view: Belaying a second with the MICRO TRAXION = danger!

Use and eight ring in guide mode. You can take in rope as fast as anybody can climb.........problem solved. 

There are too many uninformed responses in this thread.  MP seems to be becoming greener.  Not the only time I've felt this way recently.

Comparing to speed ascents on The Nose, really?  

If you belayed me with a Microtraxion, I'd probably never climb with you again.

And, if the crushers you know aren't using a GriGri, they're not crushing (realitive to them, of course).  Having a second work a difficult sequence on any other device is awful as the belayer and slow as the climber.

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I never top belay with a tube style plaquette device, they suck.  It's impossible to keep up with a quick second and my elbows flare-up immediately.

My choices are a GiGi or a GriGri.  I also always carry a Reverso.  The Reverso provides a back-up if I drop my primary device, and I need to belay a leader if carrying a GiGi or to rap if carring the GriGri.

The weight of a GiGi is negligible and the device is super smooth.  More often than not, this is my choice: cragging, climbing alpine rock, or winter climbing.

If I suspect my second will need to be lowered or raised at any point (they're working a hard move or getting worked), I carry a GriGri.  Transitions between belaying and lowering are immediate, as are transitions between belays, lowers, and hauls.  The GriGri is a great progress capture (so is the GiGi, while a Reverso or ATC Guide are prone to friction).

Why the back-up with the GiGi?  Avoiding a Munter is worth a few ounces.

The GiGi has a cult following for good reasons.  It's inexpensive, buy one and play with it.  If you don't like it, you're only out a few bucks.

Ultimately, your belay approach should be based on your partner and your objective, have a mixed bag in your took kit.

kevin deweese wrote:

Gigi feeds like butter in top belay mode BUT if you're worried about the extra weight of a grigri vs a tube belay device, you need to understand that the Gigi is not for lead belaying or rapping so you'll still need to bring a secondary tube device. At that point the benefit of the Gigi based upon your situational stipulations is significantly lessened

Gigi works fine for rapping. I do it all the time on a 9.5mm rope, double and single strand with an autoblock. If I want more friction I use different shaped biner or put an additional one in for more friction or if really feel the need, redirect the rap back up to a biner over the device and back down to autoblock - most friction, never need to do this though. In a pinch you could lead belay with it too, in autoblock mode off harness. Or a munter. The gigi is actually my preferred rap device on multi-pitch raps. Whether you use a biner or girth hitch the gigi to your extension sling, you never have to take the gigi off during the rappels, which is great because I'm always worried about dropping an atc when setting up/breaking down.  

My partner and I carry a grigri for lead and a gigi for top belay. Swap devices at belay if swapping leads. If the climb requires rapping we throw an ATC in the pack to replace the grigri on the descent (hate using grigri for rappel). Or if only want to carry the grigri and gigi, just tie off a single strand for first person on the rappel to use the grigri. Then second person raps with gigi like normal. 

TL;DR: Get a gigi - they work awesome, are cheap ($16.92 and prime shipping on Amazon), lightweight, versatile, do not take much room on harness. Any shortcoming of the device is definitely made up by the "feeds like butter in top belay mode". And now you have an extra rap device for when you take friends out that need to use your ATC's or Reverso's.

Edit: Chris beat me to it and maybe said it better - apparently I did not see his response, agree with him on all points!

Well, with Kevin, Chris, and mstolorena recommending the GiGi, I've put it on my wish list of things to get next time I put an Amazon order in. Sounds like a very handy device to have and know how to use in certain situations.

The friction in all auto block devices is quite dependent on two factors:  The blocking biner and the rope.

The blocking biner's shape and radius play an important role.  Larger radius and round stock can make for a lot less friction.  Skinny, slick ropes are much easier than fatter, stiff ropes.  All else equal, the gigi will have the least amount of friction, atc guide more, reverso even more.  They are all considered ok to go hands free in most, not all situations.

The GriGri may have the least amount of friction.  But, Petzl warns that it is not hands free.  This is because it won't always lock when "gentle" force is applied.  Think lots of friction in the system, slabby falls, etc.  Even leaders have been dropped on GriGri's from these low force falls when the belayer did not maintain control of the brake strand.  This is not an issue with the auto block devices. 

chris magness wrote:

There are too many uninformed responses in this thread.  MP seems to be becoming greener.  Not the only time I've felt this way recently.

Comparing to speed ascents on The Nose, really?  

If you belayed me with a Microtraxion, I'd probably never climb with you again.

And, if the crushers you know aren't using a GriGri, they're not crushing (realitive to them, of course).  Having a second work a difficult sequence on any other device is awful as the belayer and slow as the climber.

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I never top belay with a tube style plaquette device, they suck.  It's impossible to keep up with a quick second and my elbows flare-up immediately.

My choices are a GiGi or a GriGri.  I also always carry a Reverso.  The Reverso provides a back-up if I drop my primary device, and I need to belay a leader if carrying a GiGi or to rap if carring the GriGri.

The weight of a GiGi is negligible and the device is super smooth.  More often than not, this is my choice: cragging, climbing alpine rock, or winter climbing.

If I suspect my second will need to be lowered or raised at any point (they're working a hard move or getting worked), I carry a GriGri.  Transitions between belaying and lowering are immediate, as are transitions between belays, lowers, and hauls.  The GriGri is a great progress capture (so is the GiGi, while a Reverso or ATC Guide are prone to friction).

Why the back-up with the GiGi?  Avoiding a Munter is worth a few ounces.

The GiGi has a cult following for good reasons.  It's inexpensive, buy one and play with it.  If you don't like it, you're only out a few bucks.

Ultimately, your belay approach should be based on your partner and your objective, have a mixed bag in your took kit.

Thank god you came in just in time to dispel all the bullshit misinformation!  I consider the GiGi to be a guide mode belay.  Just a different type of tube/plate.  

Greg D wrote:

The friction in all the auto block devices are quite dependent on two factors:  The blocking biner and the rope.

The blocking biner's shape and radius play an important role.  Larger radius and round stock can make for a lot less friction.  Skinny, slick ropes are much easier than fatter, stiff ropes.  All else equal, the gigi will have the least amount of friction, atc guide more, reverso even more.

The GriGri may have the least amount of friction.  But, Petzl warns that it is not hands free.  This is because it won't always lock when "gentle" force is applied.  Think lots of friction in the system, slabby falls, etc.  Even leaders have been dropped on GriGri's from these low force falls when the belayer did not maintain control of the brake strand.  This is not an issue with the auto block devices. 

Great points. And another big advantage of the tube/plate guide style belay.  Disadvantage is being able to lower.  But the OP's question was about speed, not convenience.

Erroneous Publicus wrote:

None of the fast crushers I know (and I know a lot of em) use a gri-gri in the manner you are contemplating. 

http://cascadeclimbers.com/alpine-belay-by-blake-herrington/

just use the grigri with redirect and be done with it.  ten years from now people will finally realize that guide mode belaying was just a lame attempt by gear manufacturers to sell a bunch of belay devices that people don't need. 

apparently erroneus doesn't know any crushers...  if you look at the climbers who are doing shit really fast they are using grigris.  they are by FAR the most versatile tool.

baldclimber wrote:

Petzl takes a different view: Belaying a second with the MICRO TRAXION = danger!

And the pros I've seen using it as a belay device are sponsored by them.  

i'm guessing the latter...

slim wrote:

just use the grigri with redirect and be done with it.  ten years from now people will finally realize that guide mode belaying was just a lame attempt by gear manufacturers to sell a bunch of belay devices that people don't need. 

apparently erroneus doesn't know any crushers...  if you look at the climbers who are doing shit really fast they are using grigris.  they are by FAR the most versatile tool.

"Crusher" is relative of course.  I'm sure the guys/girls I know bring two Gri Gris sometimes, when they are working a route.  Not for speed though.    

I'll be in Moab in Nov if you guys want to meet up and argue about this in person.  We can have a belaying contest too.

Erroneous Publicus wrote:

"Crusher" is relative of course.  I'm sure the guys/girls I know bring two Gri Gris sometimes, when they are working a route.  Not for speed though.    

no, actually crusher isn't a relative term.  and i am pretty sure you don't know any crushers....