taking up rope faster while top belaying

My main climbing partner these days follows pitches very fast and if there is a slightly easier section of the climb I often have trouble taking the rope fast enough to keep up. I'm glad he climbs fast because it means we can tackle bigger climbs in a day, but I've been thinking about how I can pull the rope faster without being slowed down by the friction of guide mode, which is how I usually top belay. I've used both an ATC Guide and a Megajul in top belay mode with a BD rocklock as the locker that the rope runs around. I've started belaying him off a redirect on the anchor because I can take up rope really fast that way but he swears by carrying a Grigri just for top belaying plus a tube-style device for lead belaying. I admit the one time I tried using the Grigri it really did feel the easiest and nicest to pull rope through fast, but it just seems like more weight to carry plus I don't think it's an officially sanctioned way of using the device. Anyway, I thought I'd see what wisdom people here might have to help me take the rope faster. Thanks guys!

Either belay off yourself redirected through the anchor 

or

try a GiGi

Thanks for the correction Andrew! Still would like to avoid carrying the grigri if I can avoid it.

Thanks for the suggestions, Kevin! I've only vaguely heard of the GiGi, so I'm going to research it now. Hopefully it's exactly what I want.

Andrew: A fair question. I do already have a GriGri2 and I use it regularly for single pitch so it's true that it would be trivial for me to just bring it... On the other hand, when I have to hike all the gear in several miles and up a few thousand feet before then proceeding to climb 20 pitches, I'd rather not bring it if I don't have to. 

I know, I know I should just get stronger and improve my neck meat until I don't care about hiking in the extra weight of the GriGri. If that's really the answer I'll do it, but part of the reason I'm asking here is to see what the other options might be.

Interesting topic - I've also avoided using a Grigri for top belaying in guide mode because I hadn't seen anything that really seemed to support using that method. The link above to Petzl's site was interesting......however at the very bottom this is added:

"Take up slack regularly as the second climbs, always holding the brake side of the rope. This method of belaying the second is less than ideal: in this position, the GRIGRI's braking action on the rope is not optimal (especially with thin ropes). In addition, the risk of blocking the cam is greater. We therefore recommend a different technique, using a redirect point".

Kind of contradictory on the part of Petzl, but I suppose the language "less than ideal" doesn't necessarily mean unsafe.

For the time being, I will just continue using my DMM pivot for top belaying in guide mode!

Ronald B wrote:

Thanks for the correction Andrew! Still would like to avoid carrying the grigri if I can avoid it.

Thanks for the suggestions, Kevin! I've only vaguely heard of the GiGi, so I'm going to research it now. Hopefully it's exactly what I want.

Gigi feeds like butter in top belay mode BUT if you're worried about the extra weight of a grigri vs a tube belay device, you need to understand that the Gigi is not for lead belaying or rapping so you'll still need to bring a secondary tube device. At that point the benefit of the Gigi based upon your situational stipulations is significantly lessened

Gri-gri is king for top side belaying as well as belaying the leader. Gigi would be my second choice. I don't think the extra weight of the grigri is a big deal and you need one less locking biner than with the atc guide. 

Kevin: Ah, actually the GriGri scenario that my climbing partner does is to bring both a tube device and a grigri. I hadn't considered *just* bringing the grigri. I suppose that could work too. I do have experience doing a biner block rappel off one strand with a grigri so I guess I could do everything with just the one device. So I guess right now the options are:

Option 1 Megajul + Camp Ovo = 65 g + 58 g = 123 g (I put the Ovo here because it's a tad bit lighter and am reading it's basically the same as the GiGi)

Option 2 just grigri 2 = 170 g

Plus if I have a dedicated 'biner for both devices in option 1, basically both scenarios would weigh about the same.

If you position the tube belay device in guide mode properly and use a round stock biner for the brake, you can pull the rope up as fast or faster than using a gri-gri.  Key is to get the device above your head (which you can manage by sitting or standing when belaying).   i often place it directly on the highest piece on the anchor (i.e., not the master point or the shelf), assuming that's bomber.  I also sometimes place a high piece apart from the anchor for this purpose, and clip it to the anchor w/ a sling or draw.  Again, it has to be bomber.  

Erroneous, I disagree with your assessment of being able to take in slack as fast or faster with a tuber in guide mode. 

https://outdoorgearlab-mvnab3pwrvp3t0.stackpathdns.com/photos/13/84/259885_11094_L.jpg 

Here is a pretty clear graphic on why the GriGri rocks for taking in the second slack. As always a nice high masterpoint helps no matter what device you are using. 

Depending on the combination of carabiners (you need two of them to top belay), the plaquette (i.e. "guide mode" device) plus tube device can easily weigh more than a grigri plus a single ultralight locking asymmetrical D. This is particularly true if you use a large round stock locker as the braking carabiner in the plaquette to make pulling the ropes easier.

GriGri is hands down easier to pull rope while top belaying. There's an older guide in the US of some renown who uses a GriGri for top belay whenever possible as decades of plaquette use has left him with one hell of a crazy growth on this elbow (and attendant connective tissue pain).

Depending on context (and yours seems pretty appropriate), a GriGri each can be a solid plan (unless you need half ropes--then I'd go megajul). It allows for better security for the leader, a number of good simul climbing options, easy top belay, short fixing, rope soloing, hauling, etc., all of which can be huge benefits on your 20 pitch day. To rap, there's the knot-block option or simul rapping, which is a pretty realistic possibility on a 20 pitch day unless there's a good walk off.

Derek: Great points. I think at this point I'm sold on just bringing the GriGri and leaving the tube-style device at home for the kinds of situation I'm describing here. Best of all, I don't need to buy any new gear!

See Eli Poss thread on Hex Belay

Genius

IcePick: Yeah, that post is what inspired me to post this now. That and just having done a miles and thousands of feet approach to a 22 pitch climb last weekend. I was fine on that approach but then again I didn't bring the GriGri either :p

None of the fast crushers I know (and I know a lot of em) use a gri-gri in the manner you are contemplating.  Look at Nose speed attempts for example, where they have optimized for speed to N-th degree. They don't use two gg's. That alone should dissuade you from adopting this practice.  And if you do, you will have that gg on you for all your hardest sends, along w/ your rack.  You are truly a pioneer.

If the belay is set up very straight-forward where you are either hanging or standing directly below the anchors comfortably, it's easy to just throw the follower on a "shortened" top-rope setup using a belay device and running the rope through a master point or two quick draws. You can pull rope quickly this way and it's still safe. Just my two cents instead of using a huge Gri-Gri or auto-block. 

DrRockso wrote:

Erroneous, I disagree with your assessment of being able to take in slack as fast or faster with a tuber in guide mode. 

https://outdoorgearlab-mvnab3pwrvp3t0.stackpathdns.com/photos/13/84/259885_11094_L.jpg 

Here is a pretty clear graphic on why the GriGri rocks for taking in the second slack. As always a nice high masterpoint helps no matter what device you are using. 

My euro guide friends don't use a gg in this way either, and elbow tendonitis is one of their major job hazards (seriously). 

Erroneous Publicus wrote:

The fact that none of the fast crushers I know (and I know a lot of em) use a gri-gri in the manner you are contemplating should dissuade you from adopting this practice.  But maybe you can reinvent the wheel.

The fact your bro's dont it this way means neither that A- no one shoulder think of doing it this way; nor B- that this means you are reinventing the wheel.

From my own personal non-fast-crusher (and I know none of the 'fast crushers') experience it is nearly always way  less of a pain in the ass to do a top belay with a gri-gri compares to an ATC setup (guide mode or off harness).  Story is different in the alpine for several reasons but clearly my personal experience will hopefully dissuade you from any other options.

Anyways, Gri Gri is a good option to reduce friction in a great number of scenarios.  Establishing an ideal angle for pulling rope through the masterpoint in guide mode is also a huge time and energy saver, but often can often result in unfavorable side effects such as hanging, uncomfortable or less-than-secure belays.

Erroneous Publicus wrote:

My euro guide friends don't use a gg in this way either, and elbow tendonitis is one of their major job hazards (seriously). 

Dude, super sick of them to defy science and shit.  Thank god they were in Europe for Hurricane Harvey -- but  I guess they wouldnt have experienced that hazard since they defy reality.

Troy: I appreciate your comment. That's actually what I started to do recently before I decided to ask here. But I wanted to know if there was a better way. 

Erroneous: I'm not making any claims about the GriGri system being any good, I'm asking a question and that's what the feedback I was getting was steering me towards. What do the Nose speed people do for belays then? Since you brought it up I'm curious now.

jason.cre wrote:

The fact your bro's dont it this way means neither that A- no one shoulder think of doing it this way; nor B- that this means you are reinventing the wheel.

I don't know better than the best and fastest in the game. Apparently you know something I (and they) don't.  I recognize that techniques and technology evolve over time. Using a gg as a toprope device is not evolutionary.