Rope length policy for distracted group cragging ?

Imagine a group of 4+ climbing together at a crag where routes of wildly different lengths are present.  Some of these people can distract each other with conversation, and it is not known how many of them are disciplined in always tying a knot at the end.

I think the primary responsibility for ensuring the rope is long enough (or knotted) is on the lead climber.  No rope policy can solve this - some routes are even longer than 35.  But, considering the regularity with which experienced lead climbers get lowered off the ends of 60m ropes in group settings, I think the group can take some precautions.  My question is "what's reasonable ?"

The case for avoiding 60m ropes in an area that has many 30-35m routes (or, similarly, avoiding 50m ropes in an area that has many 25-30) seems pretty good - it's not easy to tell a rope's exact length visually.

On the other hand, if the area includes short routes and somebody has a 30, I'd hate to not use the 30.  One thing distracted groups tend to do is step on ropes, and I would rather have them stomp a 30 than a 60 or 70.  So I kind of think 30 should be allowed, although I'm open to arguments against.

What about 40m ?  Could somebody confuse it for a 60 ?

If you don't know how to deal with this than do your research before you climb the route. I have been guility of this after watching another group climb a route and than jumping on it only to find out after I was being lowered that my 60m was not long enough and the other group had a 70m. My climbing partner was smart enough to be watching the end of the rope though so we ended up having him climb up the easy start of the route so he could lower me to the ground. It wouldn't have been fatal most likely but if he had not been watching the end of the rope it would not have been a fun 10-15ft fall onto some jagged rocks at the end.

"No rope policy can solve this."

Bingo.

As far as I'm concerned, the belayer should be paying attention to their end of the rope. Period. That includes tying in, if it's really gonna be a squeaker, tying a knot in the end, watching for the middle mark, tying the other end to the rope bag....whatever. 

I always stay "on duty" even when my climber is rappelling, watching to see it's all good on the ground end.

Best, OLH

Serge Smirnov wrote:

Imagine a group of 4+ climbing together at a crag where routes of wildly different lengths are present.  Some of these people can distract each other with conversation, and it is not known how many of them are disciplined in always tying a knot at the end.

I think the primary responsibility for ensuring the rope is long enough (or knotted) is on the lead climber.  No rope policy can solve this - some routes are even longer than 35.  But, considering the regularity with which experienced lead climbers get lowered off the ends of 60m ropes in group settings, I think the group can take some precautions.  My question is "what's reasonable ?"

The case for avoiding 60m ropes in an area that has many 30-35m routes (or, similarly, avoiding 50m ropes in an area that has many 25-30) seems pretty good - it's not easy to tell a rope's exact length visually.

On the other hand, if the area includes short routes and somebody has a 30, I'd hate to not use the 30.  One thing distracted groups tend to do is step on ropes, and I would rather have them stomp a 30 than a 60 or 70.  So I kind of think 30 should be allowed, although I'm open to arguments against.

What about 40m ?  Could somebody confuse it for a 60 ?

Ignore the 30m ropes - just bring 70's. And stepping on ropes is not the concern everyone once thought (unless you're wearing crampons of course!).

Tie a fucking knot in the end every time. A policy for having a certain length rope is a crutch that insists on excusing basic day one of 'learning how to climb' safety procedures.  

DrRockso wrote:

Tie a fucking knot in the end every time. A policy for having a certain length rope is a crutch that insists on excusing basic day one of 'learning how to climb' safety procedures.  

This ^

One thing that could help, Put a really obvious middle mark on your ropes.  If the belayer sees it and you're not at the anchor yet...

You don't need a rope length policy for distracted group cragging, you need a to stop doing "distracted group cragging". If, as you say, "Some of these people can distract each other with conversation, and it is not known how many of them are disciplined in always tying a knot at the end", my advice would be to not climb with those people until they have learned how to perform the basic safety procedures involved in climbing.

Not to point out the obvious but could you simply not go to the top of the rock and heaven forbid walk down.Modern climbers sure like to over think a simple problem.

A real life example of why rope length won't save you, from last weekend in the Gunks:

I was on the ground, waiting for the leader to set up an anchor to belay me up. A party on the route next to me was rapping a ~40m route with a 70m rope. The route was divided into 2 pitches with rap stations at the end of each pitch, and the wall was curved such that you couldn't see the bottom from the top. Luckily I saw them about to start rapping down from the second rap station without moving the rope down, and seeing that their ropes didn't reach the ground, I called up and was able to warn them in time. They did have knots in the end of their ropes, but it would still have been an enormous annoyance for them (and if they couldn't self-rescue, for those around them).

I avoid climbing in groups of 4+ distracted climbers that step on ropes and don't knot the ends.

My 70m ropes usually need the ends trimmed while the rest of the rope still has plenty of life so I end up with 60m, 50m ropes, etc. All still useful as long as I know the length.  I've started marking the tail (last 1") of the rope with the length using a sharpie (or special magic rope marker if you prefer).

On that note, ropes should really have an accurate mid-mark, for convenience as much as safety. Bi-pattern is nice, just make sure to trim each end equally if you need to. If your rope is so dirty you can't see the mid-mark, consider washing it.

Of course none of this matters to a person climbing or rappelling if the length of the route is unknown. Climbers that can't be bothered to tie knots in the rope should be restricted to bouldering and free soloing.

There are alot of issues here.  And a lot of reasonable answers.

But a simple precaution in a group setting is simply NOT to take a 60m rope to a sport crag where 35m routes are present.

All the other good precautions of paying attention to what you are doing apply.  But if it is feasible to remove the problem completely then why not?

Of course it all depend on the nature of this 'group' if it is just a bunch of mates who only have one 70m between them then it might not be feasible.  If it is a well financed organisation then all 70m ropes just makes simple sense.