Conflicted Emotionally

rafael wrote:

Notice almost everyone who suggested the possibility of still climbing with the incompetent belayer has been on MP for a year or less? No offense to new climbers, but I dont see the point of having a potentially crap belayer, I'd rather boulder.

I actually know someone, a guy who has been climbing for ~ couple decades by now. I would consider him a very safe belayer. Early on, couple years maybe into his climbing/belaying career, he dropped his sister while belaying. Fortunately, she was not seriously injured, and has continued climbing strong since then. And he learned a lot from this close call and is a safer belayer now because of that close call.

He has been fairly public sharing this story, and how much of a wake-up call it was for him.

If the belayer in the OP's story showed a fraction of the understanding of the gravity of his actions, and owned up to his mistake, he might have, with time, a potential to become a good belayer. It doesn't sound like he has that potential, based on the OP's description...

At the end of the day, the veracity of the TS's story is irrelevant.  If he felt he was dropped 40' and almost decked and that his belayer felt no remorse, he probably will never be able to trust that belayer again.

rafael wrote:

but he wasnt a climber, and you cant easily ditch your dad, especially when you arent an adult. Interestingly, that incident might have actually been a failure mode of grigri, prob much less pops fault, though not entirely so.

Here goes pages 10-15...but: improperly using a device does not constitute a "failure mode."  It was 100% pop's fault, stop trying to blame a device for human error.  As far as continuing to climb with him...I wouldn't blame Ashima for wanting a new belayer, but I'm sure his response was a little more remorseful than "suck it up, buttercup...you're still alive."

aikibujin wrote:

Hope it's not anyone I know!

No it was a girl I had met and was a reliable partner for a few months a couple years ago.

Louis Weiher wrote:

I cannot think of a situation where one would get rope burns from arresting a fall unless the brake hand left the rope.  And if your brake hand leaves the rope, you are doing it wrong.  This is rule #1 of belaying, and the fact that someone who has been climbing at least 3 years is making this mistake makes me very concerned.  Add to the fact that you refer to him as a "delusional moron" and I think it's clear that this guy isn't competent to be taking anyone's life in his hands.  He either is too stupid to learn, or - more likely - he is too immature to understand the importance of taking it seriously.  

My climber fell yesterday as he was clipping. I had my climber side hand up high and my brake hand low and close to the ATC, as he had just pulled up rope to clip. I was about to pull the slack when I heard the clip, but he popped with no warning before he clipped and had a lot of slack out to clip. I immediately pulled hard with the hot end and the brake side to pull all the slack I could, but he had enough rope for the clip (overhead) that came through the system so fast that my free hand got burned a bit. I stopped him with plenty of room to spare and he thanked me for the good catch. Brake hand never left the rope but between me pulling and the rope slack moving very very quickly I took a little burn. Proper belay but a burn can happen. Cheers.

I have burned both hands before.......  and I stopped the idiot from decking, who refused to place the pro I asked him to place....  When somebody is way run out and you judge that they will "deck" it's OK to let go with the brake hand-- back pedal and haul in rope with both hands on the rope side.... just as long as you use a Grigri. 

Never say never

mpech wrote:

3 thoughts:

1) your belayer made 1 mistake in 3 years climbing together. Be honest, is your accident rate really better than that? Mine is probably 1 every 5 years, thankfully I haven't hurt myself or others. It's hard to be perfect at anything in life...

2) screaming at someone the moment after they almost kill you is the least likely time their going to apologize- they feel attacked, and will defend what they did, even if they know they are in the wrong. 

2) belaying is not rocket science. It is easy to teach proper technique. make sure he is using proper technique and is properly vigilant and this sort of accident won't happen again.

Good points! Your counting wasn't the best though... :P

This happened to me once. Emphasis on ONCE. I never let that person belay again.    The casual attitude was the same in my situation and the exact reason I wouldn't give it a second chance. Not really sure they valued the situation the same as I.

mpech wrote:

1) your belayer made 1 mistake in 3 years climbing together. Be honest, is your accident rate really better than that? Mine is probably 1 every 5 years, thankfully I haven't hurt myself or others. It's hard to be perfect at anything in life...

This is the most ridiculous rationalization in this entire thread. This isn't some minor, little mishap - this was nearly severe injury/life threatening...in the fairly controlled environment of a gym. There is zero excuse for this. Absolutely none. If you do a mistake like that every 5 years, I never want to climb with you and I wonder why you still have partners if they ever read this. Is my accident rate better than that? Yes - zero in 45 years.

I've been thinking (yeah, I know, I should do this more often)... if someone cant keep the person they are belaying from taking a 40 foot fall in the gym, they should consider not lead belaying again. It sounds harsh, but how to know that they wont kill someone eventually? At the very least they need to sit and think how to never let that happen again. If they dont figure out how to prevent that they are absolutely not to be trusted as a belayer. Ever.

Marc801 C wrote:

This is the most ridiculous rationalization in this entire thread. This isn't some minor, little mishap - this was nearly severe injury/life threatening...in the fairly controlled environment of a gym. There is zero excuse for this. Absolutely none. If you do a mistake like that every 5 years, I never want to climb with you and I wonder why you still have partners if they ever read this. Is my accident rate better than that? Yes - zero in 45 years

Marc801- have you ever been in a car accident? Did you stop driving after that? Do you never drive with anyone who's ever had a car accident? 

Marc801 C wrote:

This is the most ridiculous rationalization in this entire thread. This isn't some minor, little mishap - this was nearly severe injury/life threatening...in the fairly controlled environment of a gym. There is zero excuse for this. Absolutely none. If you do a mistake like that every 5 years, I never want to climb with you and I wonder why you still have partners if they ever read this. Is my accident rate better than that? Yes - zero in 45 years.

I don't think mpec meant that they let a climber deck once every five years. I got the impression that they meant they make a belaying mistake (let go with the break hand momentarily, etc) that could have resulted in a bad situation if it had been coupled with a fall or other circumstances. Have you, in 45 years, never done anything that could be considered bad form while belaying someone? I'm sure you have, because you're a human being.

Marc801 C wrote:

This is the most ridiculous rationalization in this entire thread. This isn't some minor, little mishap - this was nearly severe injury/life threatening...in the fairly controlled environment of a gym. There is zero excuse for this. Absolutely none. If you do a mistake like that every 5 years, I never want to climb with you and I wonder why you still have partners if they ever read this. Is my accident rate better than that? Yes - zero in 45 years.

Where I got the "once every 5 years" number: I've been climbing about 7 years.... I once lowered my partner off the rope... Luckily it was only 2 feet of the ground, and they didn't hurt themselves landing on the uneven terrain. Hopefully my error rate doesn't go up, but I dont have any pretensions that another mistake couldn't happen- I'm a human, after all, and they tend to be imperfect.

Marc801 C wrote:

Is my accident rate better than that? Yes - zero in 45 years.

You sir are just very lucky.  You may not have had an accident, but there is no way you haven't at least had a close call in 45 years.  You can believe you are infallible, but I think you are just in denial...

mpech wrote:

Marc801- have you ever been in a car accident? Did you stop driving after that? Do you never drive with anyone who's ever had a car accident? 

If they almost killed me due to gross negligence no, I would not drive with that person ever again.  Would you drive with someone who got into an accident because they let go of the wheel?

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:

Sounds like you don't trust him anymore. There is your answer.

If he reads this, he may can you based on your emotional stability, I would.

HAFE nails it.

Either you trust him or you don't.

Even an infinite amount of internet blather about whether you should or shouldn't trust him won't change that.

I'd can you too- apparently you aren't stable in a crisis.

Jacob Bretz wrote:

My gut says the latter, but still curious...

Buddy Smith wrote:

... Proper belay but a burn can happen. ...

climbing friend,

no.

incorrect.

a burn can happen only if you're touching/grasping the climber end during a falling, which it is improper and easily avoided and it is in fact a sign of the inexperience and poor belaying. I personally slap the wang of anyone who is believing differently.

Stagg54 Taggart wrote:

You sir are just very lucky.  You may not have had an accident, but there is no way you haven't at least had a close call in 45 years.  You can believe you are infallible, but I think you are just in denial...

climbing friend,

a close call is different than someone who is incompetent at belaying and should not be trusted...

mpech wrote:

Where I got the "once every 5 years" number: I've been climbing about 7 years.... I once lowered my partner off the rope... Luckily it was only 2 feet of the ground, and they didn't hurt themselves landing on the uneven terrain. Hopefully my error rate doesn't go up, but I dont have any pretensions that another mistake couldn't happen- I'm a human, after all, and they tend to be imperfect.

I feel the same way.

Jaren Watson wrote:

I've been dropped once, outside. Fortunately, the crux was low. I fell fifteen feet to the ground. I was very lucky the landing was just dirt and bushes. As I was falling and realizing I wasn't going to be caught, I instantly thought, "Thank god I didn't fall on the two-pitch route we just finished." Undoubtedly, I would have been killed.

Just wondering if the decking had anything to do with the proximity to the ground and the corresponding rope slack/stretch above the first bolt.  I'm guessing if 15 feet off the ground (from feet or hands?) there was only 1 bolt clipped.  Obviously it is the climber's choice, and you want a belayer who keeps you tight before the second / third bolt is clipped, but if it was a slack / low to ground kind of error belayers learn real quick.  

Fernando Cal wrote:

Just curious, how do you fall 50 feet when following? Unless the leader fell asleep as you climbed half the pitch and you didn't notice all the accumulating slack (assuming grigri or ATC on guide mode? 

Or belaying off the harness from the end of the pitch? 

My gut says the latter, but still curious...

50 feet is huge to fall when following.  Other possibilities may be: it was 5.0 or 4th class and the guy was coming up super fast, and the belayer pulled up slack with his hands but didn't pull it though the device in guide mode.  Or the rope got lodged around a branch, but that wouldn't explain the rope burns.  So yes maybe a harness, at the end of a full rope pitch.