Necedah Apology

To the two groups from Adventure Rock yesterday, especially the group on Air, I was jerk, and I apologize. I could have, and should have, handled our encounter in a better way. In fact, my surly attitude was pretty out of character for me and I regretted it as soon as I got to the next anchor. I'm not sure what caused my temper to escalate so quickly, but I'll make no excuses for it. I hope you can forgive me. I also hope you'll give me this chance to do a better job communicating my concerns. I've spent a lot of time thinking about our encounter, and I think it would have been a lot more constructive if I'd been more polite, so here goes:

1. Access at outdoor climbing areas in Wisconsin is fragile, and it is especially so at Necedah. Please try to minimize your impact on other users of the area, climbers and non-climbers alike. This includes not playing music through a speaker. Not everyone shares the same taste in music, and some people go outside to enjoy quiet solitude in nature - it's impolite to rob them of that ability.

2. It is long-established in the general etiquette that leaders and soloists have the right of way when climbing outside. If asked, top ropers should let folks lead-through, the top ropers might even learn something, maybe a what to do or a what not to do, but something nonetheless. This knife admittedly cuts both ways, leaders and soloists should only ask to lead through if they're competent, efficient, and fast. It's equally impolite to hog a route on TR or on lead.

3. Lowering climbers in such a manner that a weighted rope is drawn across soft sandstone will quickly put permanent grooves in the rock. This is the case on Air. The rock is already showing signs of wear on the ledge below the anchors. It will only get worse if people continue to set up top ropes on the route. The rock is a precious resource, and we all need to be mindful of it and care for it.

So again, I apologize, and I regret not being a more polite communicator. I was a new climber once too, and it's easy to forget that sometimes. I know the "rules" aren't spelled out everywhere, but a long history of climbing has generally brought the various ethics and etiquette debates to stable points that allow us all to share the limited resource in an amicable fashion. I know I once railed against some of these established practices, but I've come to see the value in many of them. I hope you guys can forgive me, and to make up for it I'd be happy to take any of you out for a day and teach you anything I have to offer - I'll guarantee a better attitude on my part.

EDIT to add: If you were in the group and you want to contact me without posting here, please feel free to click through to my profile, and send me a direct message. If you want to call me out here, feel free to do that as well.

Do you have more background on the encounter?

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Do you have more background on the encounter?

To what end? I'm not looking to turn this into a fifteen page thread with every MP'er in the world weighing in. I generally felt bad about having an attitude and wanted to reach out to the the specific folks in the group. MP seemed like the most likely place for me to get my message to them. Having seen the way MP threads can degrade and digress, I'd rather not have this turn into a venue for the world to weigh in on the situation, and therefore was hoping to keep the details in the hands of the folks that were there. I'm not looking to put myself or the group on trial. I was, as I admit above, grumpy and not communicating well. I'm simply hoping to correct that here (because it's out of character for me) and I regretted it. So I'm apologizing and trying to frame my concerns in a better manner. I have two goals, genuinely express my remorse, and do a better job of effectively communicating my concerns with a more positive tone.

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Do you have more background on the encounter?

Uh, not sure what more background information you need that he didn't clearly explain.

James tactfully lays out what happened and he nicely articulates many important issues that affect crags everywhere, not just in WI.

 Thanks for posting this 'apology'.

James Schroeder wrote:

To what end? I'm not looking to turn this into a fifteen page thread with every MP'er in the world weighing in. I generally felt bad about having an attitude and wanted to reach out to the the specific folks in the group. MP seemed like the most likely place for me to get my message to them. Having seen the way MP threads can degrade and digress, I'd rather not have this turn into a venue for the world to weigh in on the situation, and therefore was hoping to keep the details in the hands of the folks that were there. I'm not looking to put myself or the group on trial. I was, as I admit above, grumpy and not communicating well. I'm simply hoping to correct that here (because it's out of character for me) and I regretted it. So I'm apologizing and trying to frame my concerns in a better manner. I have two goals, genuinely express my remorse, and do a better job of effectively communicating my concerns with a more positive tone.

You know they are from, "Adventure Rock". Why not contact them directly? That seems like the most logical way to express a serious apology. Posting it up on MP....you know how this is going to turn out.

England wrote:

You know they are from, "Adventure Rock". Why not contact them directly? That seems like the most logical way to express a serious apology. Posting it up on MP....you know how this is going to turn out.

Well, considering that "Adventure Rock" consists of two climbing gyms that serve a metro area of greater than 1.5 million people, I thought a post on MP had a better shot than cold-calling the gym on Monday morning and asking "Do you know if any of your hundreds (or thousands) of customers were climbing at Necedah this weekend?"

James Schroeder wrote:

Well, considering that "Adventure Rock" consists of two climbing gyms that serve a metro area of greater than 1.5 million people, I thought a post on MP had a better shot than cold-calling the gym on Monday morning and asking "Do you know if any of your hundreds (or thousands) of customers were climbing at Necedah this weekend?"

What a microaggression 

James Schroeder wrote:

Well, considering that "Adventure Rock" consists of two climbing gyms that serve a metro area of greater than 1.5 million people, I thought a post on MP had a better shot than cold-calling the gym on Monday morning and asking "Do you know if any of your hundreds (or thousands) of customers were climbing at Necedah this weekend?"

Fair enough. Don't sweat it. At 37 I was very much the same way. Over the last few years I realize that hardly anyone cares about anyone but themselves. Take a deep breath, move on, and don't let it ruin your day. Life is to short to try to fix selfishness. Good luck brother.

England wrote:

Fair enough. Don't sweat it. At 37 I was very much the same way. Over the last few years I realize that hardly anyone cares about anyone but themselves. Take a deep breath, move on, and don't let it ruin your day. Life is to short to try to fix selfishness. Good luck brother.

Also, I thought publicly taking responsibility for being a jerk would lend some credibility and sincerity to my apology. I genuinely feel bad about the way I handled it.

James Schroeder wrote:

To what end? I'm not looking to turn this into a fifteen page thread with every MP'er in the world weighing in. 

Then why even post? You obviously were looking for some validation or attention. Maybe you dont want a 15 pager but its more likely you are ashamed of your words. I say man up and confess. You are not the first person to be a dick at the crag and you wont be the last. 

James Schroeder wrote:

Also, I thought publicly taking responsibility for being a jerk would lend some credibility and sincerity to my apology. I genuinely feel bad about the way I handled it.

i appreciate you posting this publically and being accountable for your actions. Sounds like there were some things you both could have done better and you acknowledge that. Also just stopping in to say how much of a fan I am of Necedah. I was there last month and it's such a fun place to climb!

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

Then why even post? You obviously were looking for some validation or attention. Maybe you dont want a 15 pager but its more likely you are ashamed of your words. I say man up and confess. You are not the first person to be a dick at the crag and you wont be the last. 

Actually, I'm just looking for the people I ran into and trying to get the message to them. But then, I've already said that. If I wanted validation, or attention, I'd have gone about my original post, and subsequent posts, in quite a different manner. The problem on MP, and to some extent the broader world these days, is that there are too many folks out there just (apologies to Michael Feldman) itchin' for a fight. Greg, you're not involved, stay that way.

I mean...you posted on a public forum...in a very controversial community...sooooo....were all involved because we read about you confessing to be a jerk but you wont say what you did. 

grog m aka Greg McKee wrote:

I mean...you posted on a public forum...in a very controversial community...sooooo....were all involved because we read about you confessing to be a jerk but you wont say what you did. 

Yes, I posted in a public forum, because I think it's the best way to reach my intended audience (of which you're not a member Greg). And I did confess to what I did, which was that I was a jerk when I confronted them - I wasn't my normal, "Happy Saturday", friendly and helpful self. I don't remember exactly what I said, but it wasn't done in a tone I was happy with and I'm trying to correct that. I'm not sure why you feel the need to involve yourself or that you are entitled to an explanation, but that's all that happened. Some folks were making some forgivable beginner mistakes and probably didn't know any better. Then I showed up and instead of being my typical gracious and forgiving self and politely helping them out; I was an ass and my tone wasn't right. Then I felt bad about it, and tried to search out those folks to apologize while trying to say what I meant to say in a more positive tone. It's really that simple, no hidden agenda, no grand conspiracy, just a flawed human trying his best to make right by his fellow humans - life's to short to not admit one's mistakes. I hope that satisfies you Greg.

I have to say, I'm on Gregs side here. You post on a public forum then get pissed off when other people want the details. 

You're obviously not new to the Proj, what were you expecting?

PS- Gym communities are relatively small. I worked at one in Seattle ( a metro area close to 4 million) and if someone called asking to hook up with a couple of members, it would be pretty easy. There are remarkably few climbers who waste time on these forums.

But kudos for admitting your fault. 

James, Mad props for apologizing and taking responsibility for your self and actions. Also thanks for your help caring for Necedah and your efforts there. It is a very unique area and one I knew well bitd. Cheers.

On a side note you should have seen some of our "antics"back in the day!

Greg, James can't help himself but to repond to anything you post. Flame away! 15 pages here we come!!!!!!

mediocre wrote:

I have to say, I'm on Gregs side here. You post on a public forum then get pissed off when other people want the details. 

You're obviously not new to the Proj, what were you expecting?

PS- Gym communities are relatively small. I worked at one in Seattle ( a metro area close to 4 million) and if someone called asking to hook up with a couple of members, it would be pretty easy. There are remarkably few climbers who waste time on these forums.

But kudos for admitting your fault. 

Thank you for the kudos. Actually I'm not pissed, maybe disappointed that it's so hard to have positive discourse on MP. It's discouraging that we as a community have this potentially wonderful resource (which, yes, I've been a part of for a while - and unfortunately have occasionally been guilty of dragging through the proverbial internet muck on occasion - though hopefully less often with each passing year) that gets regularly derailed. In the end, I hope someday everytime someone starts a forum on here he or she doesn't need to consider every word as though people are looking for the worst possible interpretation - rather that the community will do its best to generously interpret and actually try to see things from the writer's point of view. We're not all assholes, but we all are capable of being assholes from time-to-time - it's better when we own that and try to fix it.

Nice apology, James. Your points were well stated and articulate.

As for the remainder of you and your 15 pages of dribble...YAWN.

James Schroeder wrote:

disappointed that it's so hard to have positive discourse on MP. It's discouraging that we as a community have this potentially wonderful resource that gets regularly derailed. In the end, I hope someday everytime someone starts a forum on here he or she doesn't need to consider every word as though people are looking for the worst possible interpretation

I do agree with this. Nothing like the forums to bring out the hatefulness in our community