The stigma of being a client

Spencer Parkin wrote:

Anyhow, hiring a guide is very expensive, and I've never been made of money, so it seems like an unreasonable burden on me for them to expect a tip.  If they need a tip to get the amount of money they need to survive, then I think their boss should pay them more.  And I'm not against tipping.  Ever since a guide finally told me he expected a tip, I have made it a point to provide one.  What this really means to me is that I have to take whatever the going rate is and add whatever I think the tip should be, and so budget for that; so it makes hiring a guide alot more expensive than the service advertises.

i never knew about the tipping thing until i read about it on MP so 3 of my guides last year i didnt tip. im not a dick and if i had known i would have...but i will definitely make it up to those guides when i cross there path and i will eventually meet up with them again.

I tend to favor doing things at or slightly above my current capacities,hence generally no need for a guide - the point is to learn through experience.

However, if I ever got interested in a specific project for which I don't have the capacities, or for which I don't think I can acquire the capacities quickly enough, I wouldn't see a problem or stigma in hiring one. I was in Smith Rock not long ago and some newer climbers hired a guide for some multi-pitch, as they were new to even lead climbing on their own. I thought it was a perfect way to do it and a smart move on their part, rather than a thing to be ashamed of...

Only guide I've hired was for an anchors class, but I'm not opposed nor do I judge people for doing it.  It's just a lot of money to spend on getting hauled up one climb when I'd rather invest this in building skills.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Only guide I've hired was for an anchors class, but I'm not opposed nor do I judge people for doing it.  It's just a lot of money to spend on getting hauled up one climb when I'd rather invest this in building skills.

You can build skills with a guide.  And some guides will even let you lead some things.  I found it really useful to have a guide top-rope me while he simultaneously belayed me and jugged up the pitch.  This was a mock-lead.  I was trailing a rope and pretending to lead the pitch on gear.  He was able to talk to me about my placements and stances, etc.  I went back some time later to that same pitch and led it with a non-guide partner.  (Lie Back Crack, in BCC.)

Oh, I can't forget The Great White Icicle in LCC!  I had a guide take me up this in winter as an ice climb.  It was so way rad and surreal!!!  Hanging long-armed on what you hope is a good stick with your heals low in A-frame position, while trying to get an ice-screw out with bulky gloves is...quite the experience.  There were little slough avalanches berrying the rope at one point.  The last pitch has some nearly vertical ice.  It was interesting!  Wacking the ice and seeing it dinner-plate, then hitting it again to get a good "THUNK" in the ice, is both fun and scary.

People are being super nice in this thread. Neat.

I judge people that use guides. Not like I think they are crappy people, more like they probably don't have any business being in the mountains in the first place.

More power to those that use guides or take courses to safely expand their skill set, but those fat Ohioans that think they're a badass because some guide held their hand up the DC can go screw themselves.

The only legitimate way to learn to climb is to dirtbag it for 10 - 15 years, semi-unemployed at various minimum wage jobs, subsisting on 7-11 burritos and coffee.  I would never hire a guide, as I am too badass, and my equally badass friends would laugh at me.  However, if I'd had a guide for my two attempts on Liberty Ridge, I might have made it beyond the start of the route.

I thought a standard advice to a n00b  (right after "yer-gonna-die") is to hire a guide, so why would people look down on those who do it?

I think back when climbing was a much smaller world, and there weren't so many gyms, it used to be that people who got into climbing found someone more experienced to be their mentor, and learned that way.  But now, a lot of people start climbing in a gym, and are surrounded by other people with similar level of inexperience, and people who have been climbing for a while are experiencing a bit of a n00b fatigue, due to there being so many more new people every year that the ratio of people who climb outside/people who only climb in a gym, keeps going down rather dramatically.

At the same time, the number of guide services have been increasing steadily, in response to this boom, so guides are now much more readily available. It used to be that guide services were something you would think about when you were planning for climbing Everest, not for a half-day outing to a crag. Now, you can have a guide service that would take out a family on their first-time-ever toproping outing. (Not that the guides wouldn't have done this before-- but there were a lot fewer people who thought of doing such a thing, randomly out of the blue... with more exposure comes more desire to try this sort of thing)

People often think of guides as being utilized only by new climbers. But they are also convenient because if your partners can't get the time off work, don't have the money for a trip, etc., you can use a guide. They climb when you want and where you want. And they will lead climbs that are outside of your leading ability. Partner problem solved.

Ben Gleason wrote:

People are being super nice in this thread. Neat.

I judge people that use guides. Not like I think they are crappy people, more like they probably don't have any business being in the mountains in the first place.

More power to those that use guides or take courses to safely expand their skill set, but those fat Ohioans that think they're a badass because some guide held their hand up the DC can go screw themselves.

And there it is...

If not for those fat Ohioans (why?), Guides probably wouldn't be able to make a living doing what they do.

Kyle Tarry wrote:

You should know that a tip is effectively part of the guide's wages, and not an "unreasonable burden."  Is tipping your waitress "an unreasonable burden?"

There are many different scenarios and situations where people will use a guide, and I think that the stigmatization of the client would vary widely as a function of the situation.  A climber visiting an area without a partner looking to climb for a day is quite different than someone with zero experience hiring a guide to get them to the top of a mountain they would have no business doing on their own.  Neither of these is necessarily inherently bad, but they are certainly vastly different circumstances, and I don't know how you could expect a black-or-white answer on whether these would be stigmatized.

It is an unreasonable burden for someone that saved up all their pennies for one outing, only to find that they didn't really save enough.  Why wasn't tipping mentioned in the guide service website?  If it had been, then I would have been prepared to tip.

Tipping etiquette in general is a bit hard for me.  Again, I don't mind giving tips, but because of its subjective nature, it can lead to awkwardness.  Why not just say, "here's how much. pay that, and we're good."  Then there's no miscommunication and no misunderstanding of what's expected by both the service provider and the consumer.

I imagine that tips evolved from rich people throwing their money around to the point where people started to feel entitled to it, and now it's an expected thing.

Pay that waitress more money!

FrankPS wrote:

Spencer, why do you ask? What is your opinion on using guides?

Edit: People often think of guides as being utilized only by new climbers. But they are also convenient because if your partners can't get the time off work, don't have the money for a trip, etc., you can use a guide. They climb when you want and where you want. And they will lead climbs that are outside of your leading ability. Partner problem solved.

I have really low self-esteem, so I've considered myself a major loser for needing to hire a guide to do anything.  I imagine most people that get into climbing have friends that climb all the time, and so they just learn from them.  The major barrier to entry, as an acquaintance of mine put it, is having the time to spend climbing on a regular basis to get any good at it.  I would add that you also have to have someone to climb with that is as committed as you are, and that has relatively the same goals as you do, and that is at roughly the same skill-level as you so that they either don't get board or aren't slowing you down.

Ted Pinson wrote:

And there it is...

If not for those fat Ohioans (why?), Guides probably wouldn't be able to make a living doing what they do.

Do guides make a living? 

But to answer the OP..... When you become a "real climber" it sort of defines who you are and who your friends will be.    

When you see one of your friends out guiding.... you look past the client, cause they are definitely NOT a Climber. 

But one time we ran into one of my climber friends who was guiding a very beautiful, hawt, lady client.....   my friend swooped in and offered "Free Guiding For Life" .... thats how he found his wife and future climbing partner. 

The one time I needed to hire a guide was when on a bizz trip to the Gunks. I went to EMS, I think thats what it was called. I told them I needed to hire a guide, to bring a rack and belay me, and clean the pitches.  

They told me.... "Sir thats not how it works" 

Ted Pinson wrote:

And there it is...

If not for those fat Ohioans (why?), Guides probably wouldn't be able to make a living doing what they do.

Just some guy I met once. Also I'm from the Midwest, so I reserve the right to talk shit about my people, you goddamned FIB.

:D

Ben Gleason wrote:

People are being super nice in this thread. Neat.

I judge people that use guides. Not like I think they are crappy people, more like they probably don't have any business being in the mountains in the first place.

More power to those that use guides or take courses to safely expand their skill set, but those fat Ohioans that think they're a badass because some guide held their hand up the DC can go screw themselves.

That is really mean to classify Ohioans as fat.  I haven't met her, but I doubt Lena Chita has an ounce of fat on her body.  I actually give more props to people who start climbing in Ohio (such as myself lol) versus Colorado.  While I lived in Colorado, the majority of people I met started climbing in Colorado because they saw others climbing everywhere, there are tons of gyms (popping up like weeds in the last 5 years)/ gear shops, or their friends/coworkers got them to go and they ended up hooked.  It takes almost no effort to get into climbing in Colorado.  Even if you didn't have any intention to climb, you might find yourself climbing.

Ohio is a different story.  It takes more effort and desire to start climbing in Ohio (especially when in the workforce).  My friend from OH (who started climbing in CO after moving there 15 yrs ago) thought it was an anomaly I started climbing while living in Ohio rather than Colorado.  In the beginning of my climbing, in Ohio I had to brave "musical chairs" each time to find a partner- no one wanted to climb with a beginner, especially one that weighs 110lbs and gives off a somewhat "valley girl vibe" in real life (on here I sound like an old-fogey).  It felt like asking people if I could sit with them at lunch in elementary school all over again. I would cold-approach people and got dirty looks and turned down a lot.  Or they would give me a single belay and leave.

I paid for a lead climbing class to learn properly (this new partner I found off Craigslist wanted me to take the class so we could lead climb together, and he forgot how), since I didn't want to inconvenience anyone to give me free lessons.  I paid a guide to take me outside the first two times at the Red River Gorge (once prior to leading inside, once after) so I could go outside otherwise I would be waiting forever (the first guide's switchblade fell out his pocket and stabbed blade first into the ground next to me).  Before I climbed multipitch with a friend who also never climbed multipitch, (a friend showed me one time, then I read books) I hired a guide so he could make sure our procedures were safe before heading out the next day.  And when I went ice climbing for the first time instead of have someone do all the work leading and being a deadweight, I hired a guide, who turned out to be really fun.

While I mostly hired guides when I ventured into a new skill, I don't judge those who hire guides exclusively.  Sometimes people want to climb without investing a lot into gear, or hire a local guide who knows the more enjoyable climbs.  I don't know why a person would judge another as long as they weren't hurting them.  I only judge those who judge others.  In fact non-regular climbers hiring guides is great because it infuses money into the climbing community without permanently cluttering up areas.  

Some of the best trips I've done involved guides, including the Thunderbolt to Sill Traverse which was still hard AF even with a guide.  It's like wearing a helmet, IDGAF what you think.  Do what you want and I'll do the same.  Maybe using a guide for single pitch top roping isn't the best use of funds, but for large objectives that are complex, it's a fantastic indulgence to not have to secure permits, navigate a route, predict weather, on sight the awkard. Sometimes it's fun to just relax and climb!

Ben Gleason wrote:

People are being super nice in this thread. Neat.

I judge people that use guides. Not like I think they are crappy people, more like they probably don't have any business being in the mountains in the first place.

More power to those that use guides or take courses to safely expand their skill set, but those fat Ohioans that think they're a badass because some guide held their hand up the DC can go screw themselves.

I find it disturbing that this post got a considerable number of thumbs-up.  This confirms in my mind what most people think of clients, but perhaps aren't willing to say it on the forum.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Only guide I've hired was for an anchors class, but I'm not opposed nor do I judge people for doing it.  It's just a lot of money to spend on getting hauled up one climb when I'd rather invest this in building skills.

If you are a competent climber and leader, it doesn't have to be a guide dragging your sorry ass up something. When I travel for work, I may only have a day or 6 or 8 hours and no room or desire to lug a rack and rope and find a partner - doubly so if it's somewhere I haven't been before.

I've been out to Vegas 3 times this year with my own gear and partners, but the last time I was out there for work I hired a guide and got in 14 pitches in 7 and a half hours on 4 different routes that were all new to me and I was back and showered before the opening of the conference at 3pm. I got to lead every money pitch without worrying about a sketchy new partner or worry about hogging all the good leads and got to try stuff harder than I could lead or stuff that was too run out for comfort.

My favorite part about hiring a guide is they do whatever I want and I never have to feel guilty or wonder if they're having a good time.