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A new low in climber vandalism hits the Gunks
Old lady H wrote: Oopsie, the "in in" is now fixed; thanks Helen! As for thread drift, I never bought the notion that the thread "belongs" to the OP. Once it is out there, it is the posters who decide what directions it will take. Some threads are ruined by this, but this one seems to be sticking with the original intent, if not in the way I anticipated. At the heart of the discussion is how much separation from its roots in the outdoor world climbing will ultimately tolerate, and whether trad climbing can survive as anything more than a description of the protection devices employed. I purposely left all references to the Mohonk Preserve out, because I hoped that the rejection of extensive ticking would not be relegated to the authority of the land owners, rather than being embraced as a shared responsibility of those who use outdoor resources. |
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Complacency is what killed the cat. How often have you witnessed something that was unethical or wrong and said nothing? I did on numerous occasions and looking back at it I regret it. OP, did your friend confront the climbers and pointed out that what they were doing is wrong? If not, trashing each other after the fact on a forum is not gonna do any good. The offender won't be any wiser either. The best way to educate someone is to let them know what they are doing wrong at the time they're doing it. They'll thank you or tell you to fuck off, either way you would do the right thing. |
rgold wrote: Sir, I believe even us ancients will live to see a swing toward preserving not only trad as you knew it, but non-routed, non-beta'd, climbing. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see some bolts come out in the future, some anchors removed, and some climbs....intentionally not much described. Not everyone wants a GPX track to hike, similarly, where can future climbers find that adventure, if climbing "wilderness" isn't preserved or restored? Best, OLH Although, what I'd really like with this heat, is a deep water solo climbing wall! Why the heck aren't there more of those??? See, that's thread drift. |
Marcelo F wrote: Has anyone here said that they think pink tick marks are acceptable? There's maybe one post that says this is fine, several (including from me) that question some relatively small associated issues, but that's pretty much it. |
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Rgold - Been rereading through Zen and the Art, and this thread reminds me of so many instances where the narrator begins a chataqua only to realize the audience is on an entirely different plane. Sigh, and wait for a moment when the audience is ready. Maybe. What it was, verse what it meant. |
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Sorry, one doesn't forget about an engine block easily. I was out there once and a group of russians right above me threw their empties down to hear the glass break, showering me with glass. My screaming and anger hadn't dissipated even when I'd got to the top despite the fact that they were gone, having tossed a few "sorrys" right after I'd started yelling names at them when the glass hit me. They didn't know I was below. Later, after having picked up a full 5 gallon bucket of broken glass below, I'd gotten into a conflict with a group of 5 Russian idiots over that issue trying to get them to stop this behavior. I'd felt that they were getting ready to toss me over the cliff as they edged up on me and the conversation grew more heated, loud and insistent, so I walked away seething. Next time, same spot, group of 9 Russians on top throwing their empties down, rather than try and deal rationally I simply called the police non-emergency line. The police showed up, crept out, watched the bottle toss action, ran out and arrested a bunch of them. A lot of the broken glass ceased at that time although there was still some. Although I will admit that seeing a flower spray painted on, while annoying as hell, is better than the few former swastikas and white supremacy proclamations that popped up and needed to be addressed and get painted over. Thankfully those aren't there now. Having worked for a concentration camp escapee who would hire any concentration camp survivor, and having lived in Germany, seeing numbered tattoos on forearms that shit is all too real and intolerable to me. Somebody writes fu*k in large letters with a bold paint color - I think there's one in the photo I posted from Wednesdays workout there, sure it pisses ya off and I am not in any way excusing it, but there's worse things. Much much worse. Imagine that by way of giving beta you hear someone down the way yelling "PUT YER RIGHT FOOT ON THE LETTER "E" ON THE KILL ALL THE JEWS GRAFFITI" to their partner while they climb. Lord forbid that insane crap travels to the Gunks and a new, new extreme low in vandalism is hit. I'm too am sorry to see the gym mentality come outside although I feel it's inevitably gonna happen due to the amount of new climbers we are seeing and how they get into the game. I guess there's things that annoy, and there's things that piss ya off, and theres things that send you into a rage. Speaking for myself anyway. Pink chalk tick marks? Please bring that here and take some of this other shit away :-) |
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Regardless of the whole pink this, sexism that... Decorating a rock face with tick marks (of any color) is undisputedly bad form and a disregard for Leave No Trace. Period. If you need them, brush them up afterward. |
smlucas Lucas wrote: Seems easy enough......right? |
Mike Brady wrote: Until you climb steep/traversing routes and can't get back into the wall. A solid argument for equipping routes with fixed gear intended to be lowered off. |
Mike Brady wrote: One would certainly hope so. But it also seems easy enough pack out one's own garbage and properly dispose of human waste. Yet some humans seem to have a real challenge with these very simple concepts of good stewardess; there's evidence of it at every popular crag. That is the issue at hand: Simple LNT ethics and respect for the natural spaces that we climbers are fortunate enough to enjoy. It is a problem. That is no embellishment. Excess chalk and tick marks are no exception. Again, if you're working a route and need to make a tick so you can land that move on your project, no sweat. But after your session, take the toothbrush and clean up after yourself. Keep it positive folks, climb on. |
Daniel Ragsdale wrote: Good point. Maybe another lesson is that people just like to be nitpick-y in online discussions, and that focusing on those minor differences leads to the misinterpretation that people are disagreeing on the broader issue? |
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Billcoe, I understand your point of view. You remind me of when I used to live in Gamtha, in the Mugu district of Nepal. The villagers there used to tell me "Sir, our goiters in Gamtha are small. You should see the goiters in the village further up the Kathyad Khola". And it was true, there were certainly worse goiters to be seen, upriver. |
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^^^LOL^^^ Indeed. Bet that crew would have loved some pink chalk too. |
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The title expressed my feelings at the time. I guess some viewers were disappointed that the referenced transgressions didn't produce for them the rush of outrage the title promised, but my feeling is that such things are serious. So the objection shouldn't be clickbaiting or hyperbole, but caring too much about preserving a dwindling resource---to that I'm prepared to plead guilty. I still think it is sad that there is was considerably more interest in my perceived linguistic excesses than there was in the actual deeds described. |
Kyle Tarry wrote: Then why did you delete that post, Kyle? When I saw that you had done so, I assumed you thought better of it, and was about to contact you with a joint offer to remove the bickering between us from all of these threads, with your consent, suggestions how to do so without messing up those threads, and, with your company, carrying that out as agreed. That offer is on the table now, sir. Best, H. |
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It's vandalism to chalk a "roadmap" on any climb, doing it in pink only makes the offense greater and encourages other graffiti minded people to think its an ok thing to do. Remember what the New York City subways looked like in the 70's? It's a slippery slope. |
rgold wrote: Sir, I'm sorry also, but I think, as is often the case, MP meandered around to some good places nonetheless. Thanks for sticking with it! On topic, places like the Gunks, and our parks out west are one end of the scale, and the point is to keep them that way. On the other end, are graffiti covered dumps. In between? Our choices to help steward the future, and slowly tip the scales. A single broken window matters. If urban neighborhoods can be rescued and turned around, when run of the mill people get fed up, there is most certainly hope for our local crags. Rgold and I, and others, have seen a great deal of change. Some bad, but quite a lot to the good. Best, OLH Off topic, sorta but not really, Google "Freak Alley, Boise, Idaho". And "Rhodes Park". Great stories, both. |
donaldm wrote: What about glow in the dark chalk for when you want to go back and do it at night? Honestly I would much rather someone use colored chalk at an area to do something than use spray paint that will not come off easy and makes the rock pretty much climbable sometimes. |
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Yeah totally, there's no difference between a pink arrow made with sidewalk chalk, and some leftover climbing chalk on a hold. Everybody knows that. |
JSH wrote: Climbing, in general, doesn't adhere to leave no trace. We have a MAJOR impact on the environment. The question is what's an acceptable level of impact. Unless you're in the alpine, acceptable impact in the climbing community generally consists of: 1) Climber trails 2) cliffside/base errosion (to a point) 3) vegitation removal 4) bolts in the wall 5) chalk on the wall (from hands) Tick marks are generally insignificant compared to these impacts. And I'm sure there are more I missed. So I'd say your LEAVE NO TRACE soapbox is a bit misplaced. Now, is it good stewardship to scrub them after? YES Are semi-permanent, bright pink ticks ok? NO There are other reasons leaving ticks behind is unacceptable, but from a LNT standpoint, the argument falls a bit short.
No one you're refering to is making that statement. Context is important. |
