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A new low in climber vandalism hits the Gunks

Daniel Ragsdale · · Portland, OR · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 60
rgold wrote:

You're absolutely right Jim---what an improvement!  It's exactly what the no-big-dealers here are arguing for, and it is heartwarming to see that we may not have long to wait.

Actually I'm just asking that marks which are much less noticeable than standard-operating-procedure on a lot of climbs not be described as an "outrage" or a "new low in Climbing vandalism." Like really, this is worse than chipping holds?

In the 80s and 90s Smith had several routes consisting entirely of plastic holds on an otherwise blank (~5.13+) face. Now that's an outrage!

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Daniel Ragsdale wrote:

Actually I'm just asking that marks which are much less noticeable than standard-operating-procedure on a lot of climbs not be described as an "outrage" or a "new low in Climbing vandalism." Like really, this is worse than chipping holds?

In the 80s and 90s Smith had several routes consisting entirely of plastic holds on an otherwise blank (~5.13+) face. Now that's an outrage!

So according to you, those painted routes, if done with colors a little less bright to make them "less noticeable than standard operating procedure on a lot of climbs" would be just dandy right?

Perhaps the standards for what constitutes and outrage have to do with how bad an area has become. Those ticks are more noticeable than any "standard operating procedure" in the Gunks, so they are still candidates for outrageousness in the Gunks.  Nor do the Gunks have plastic holds bolted on blank faces to help calibrate just how low the bar should be set for degradation.

Are the extensive chalk foothold ticks worse than chipping holds? No, the chalk will eventually be gone, but chipped holds are a permanent alteration. But I never said the chalk was worse than chipping holds, so what is your point?

It seems we might have to confront a relativist position that there is no such thing as an outrage, since somewhere there is a standard operating procedure nearly as bad, and so ho-hum is the order of the day no matter what.  No, but wait, plastic holds bolted on a wall are an outrage!  Why exactly is this?  What is it that defines an outrage?

Daniel Ragsdale · · Portland, OR · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 60
rgold wrote:

So according to you, those painted routes, if done with colors a little less bright to make them "less noticeable than standard operating procedure on a lot of climbs" would be just dandy right?

Paint is permanent.

At any rate, I'm sure a lot of non climbers walking by a cliff would prefer slight discoloration from paint compared to the modern-art pieces that many popular cliffs have become.

Perhaps the standards for what constitutes and outrage have to do with how bad an area has become. Those ticks are more noticeable than any "standard operating procedure" in the Gunks, so they are still candidates for outrageousness in the Gunks.  Nor do the Gunks have plastic holds bolted on blank faces to help calibrate just how low the bar should be set for degradation.

I would hope that pink tick marks aren't within the range of normal anywhere. It's just they aren't really that far outside the norm.

With a picture of only one hold, it's hard to tell though.

Are the extensive chalk foothold ticks worse than chipping holds? No, the chalk will eventually be gone, but chipped holds are a permanent alteration. But I never said the chalk was worse than chipping holds, so what is your point?

I guess the pink tick marks aren't a "new low" then.

It seems we might have to confront a relativist position that there is no such thing as an outrage, since somewhere there is a standard operating procedure nearly as bad, and so ho-hum is the order of the day no matter what.  No, but wait, plastic holds bolted on a wall are an outrage!  Why exactly is this?  What is it that defines an outrage?

I guess I see pink tick marks as a relatively minor transgression in the grand scheme of things, at least as one off. 

I want to make it clear that everyone things ticking every hold with pink chalk is wrong. If I saw someone doing it, I would tell them to stop, or at least ask them to explain themselves. But, I guess I'd view it as something more worthy of a funny campfire story than a forum post.

FrankPS · · Atascadero, CA · Joined Nov 2009 · Points: 276

This thread is fun. Especially the immediate charges of sexism. 

Tradiban · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Apr 2004 · Points: 11,610
mpech wrote:

Maybe this will help calibrate the amount of outrage over pink chalk?

Keith!

Is this the pic with the most outrage you could find?!

MojoMonkey · · Unknown Hometown · Joined Jan 2009 · Points: 66

I've seen similar before already in the Gunks last year - gigantic blue arrows to show the path up Beginner's Delight (#4 in https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/112302547/welcome-to-the-gunks-please-be-safe-and-considerate).

It strikes me as odd in these cases that the leader was prepared enough to bring sidewalk chalk to draw arrows, but didn't just consider breaking the climb into shorter pitches where seeing and communicating with the second would be easier and the arrows would not be useful and/or selecting climbs that wouldn't confuse their second...

Russ Keane · · Salt Lake · Joined Feb 2013 · Points: 392

The Gunks is a sacred climbing area with important traditional ethics.  I agree this is was a disgusting violation.  

wivanoff · · Northeast, USA · Joined Mar 2012 · Points: 719

While "a new low" might be hyperbole, everyone seems focused on the wrong thing. 

I'm trying to be balanced because I think of the chalk lightning bolt on "Midnight Lightning".  And yet, I find this to be offensive. So, I'm conflicted.

The tick marks were put there not incidentally because hands were sweaty, but as signposts on a 5.3 route. (Seriously, is chalk needed on a 5.3?) If they were WHITE arrows and edges they are still sign posts and diminish the enjoyment of the climb for others.  That makes it selfish on the part of those climbers. Maybe it was just thoughtless. But, the fact that a different color chalk was used indicates that this was planned so I see it as a lack of consideration. A sense of entitlement and "screw everyone else". 

As far as the color, perhaps the next climbers should use blue chalk. Or green. Or perhaps those climbers could have marked colored arrows and edges on every route they did that day. Would we then be outraged?

I hope the follower used only the pink holds on Betty. Because, as all gym climbers know, if you use other colored holds it's a "rainbow climb" and you don't get the "send" /s

Emmett Lyman · · Stoneham, MA (Boston burbs) · Joined Feb 2011 · Points: 480

I found a 1/2 stick of sidewalk chalk (pink no less) on a climb at Moore's Wall this spring. It now lives in my chalk bag in case of emergencies, haha (I never remember to toss it when I've got my chalk bag and a trash can handy). At least it's no longer out in the wild inviting someone to use it like this.

Logan Schiff · · Brooklyn, NY · Joined Jun 2012 · Points: 60

I saw the same thing on Beginner's Delight a year or two ago. Probably the same culprit.

grog m · · Saltlakecity · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 70
Sam H wrote:

Chill, no need for sexism in complaining about climber vandalism

STFU, obviously not what OP was going for. 

BigNobody · · all over, mostly Utah · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 10

The horror! The Outrage! (insert eye roll)

Em Cos · · Boulder, CO · Joined Apr 2010 · Points: 5

For those who may not know, colored sidewalk chalk is not the same stuff as climbing chalk. It will not wash away nearly as quickly, easily, or cleanly. Depending on the brand, even on a flat sidewalk that is exposed to every drop of rain, the pigment can leave a stain that can linger a long time. Where this was laid on thick in nooks and crannies not well-exposed to rain, this will be here a good long time without special cleaning efforts, and it's much easier to power wash a sidewalk than a cliff. 

Are those of you saying that this is not a big deal cause it's so similar to what already is accepted at all familiar with climbing in the Gunks? Ticking climbs with colored chalk is not normal or accepted there, nor is chipping holds or hanging perma draws or anything else you want to compare it to. If everyone who climbed in the Gunks did this it would look like a technacolor mess (which would also be horribly slippery, btw) within a week. 

Considering how normalized people seem to want to make this already, I think outrage is absolutely the appropriate response, this being the new norm in the Gunks would be seriously sad. 

grog m · · Saltlakecity · Joined Aug 2012 · Points: 70

I do not think there is a need for the pitch forks and a witch hunt. I think it is a time to educate someone who most likely does not understand the consequences of their actions. This type of thing is very uncommon and obviously the person needs to be educated sooner than later.

chris vultaggio · · The Gunks · Joined Dec 2008 · Points: 540

It's vile - and if the follower can't take directions from the belay or find her way up a 5.3 on her own then maybe she needs more time in a gym before heading outside. This sort of thing falls under the "lack of mentorship" headline that's been all too present lately - the leader should know better than to trash up a climb.

BigNobody · · all over, mostly Utah · Joined Nov 2013 · Points: 10
Em Cos wrote:

For those who may not know, colored sidewalk chalk is not the same stuff as climbing chalk. It will not wash away nearly as quickly, easily, or cleanly. Depending on the brand, even on a flat sidewalk that is exposed to every drop of rain, the pigment can leave a stain that can linger a long time. Where this was laid on thick in nooks and crannies not well-exposed to rain, this will be here a good long time without special cleaning efforts, and it's much easier to power wash a sidewalk than a cliff. 

Nonsense! My Grandkids side walk chalk washes off with the sprinklers. rgold and  his croonies (the ones who weren't in a position to talk) need a drum to beat.  It will be fine in 2 weeks tops. Until then, lets get this thread to 15 pages.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
Daniel Ragsdale wrote:

Paint is permanent.

At any rate, I'm sure a lot of non climbers walking by a cliff would prefer slight discoloration from paint compared to the modern-art pieces that many popular cliffs have become.

You read it here first folks.  Perhaps the Preserve, which is run by non-climbers, will see things this way too.

rgold · · Poughkeepsie, NY · Joined Feb 2008 · Points: 526
BigNobody wrote: rgold and  his croonies (the ones who weren't in a position to talk) need a drum to beat.  It will be fine in 2 weeks tops.

I need this drum like a hole in the head.  And I'm not into singing with anyone.  

But it is heartwarming to learn that a fully-ticked climb could stay that way for two weeks. 

I would have said two hours was too much.

As for how long the marks will last, it depends on what was actually used.  Kid's sidewalk chalk washes off pavement easily, as BN says, but oil-based pastels do not; see http://blogdowntown.com/2012/07/6908-blogdowntown-investigates-sidewalk-chalk.  Of course, regular old magnesium carbonate washes off pavement too, but has proved to be nearly impossible to fully remove from cliffs, as anyone who has participated in the now mostly defunct chalk cleanup efforts knows only too well.

Sam Hoffman · · Berkeley, CA · Joined Jul 2017 · Points: 45
rgold wrote:

Sam is a woman.

I owned up to my possibly unjustified assumptions, she ought to own up to hers.

You're right, I jumped to conclusions, and I appreciate you making the change. 

Doug Hemken · · Delta, CO · Joined Oct 2004 · Points: 13,698

Now I hear that "the climbing community" (as if it was *ever* so monolithic) has long since moved on from all that.

It is impossible to respect another person's values, or *another community's values* if you don't acknowledge that any values other than your own exist.

Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.

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