Is the phrase "The leader must never fall!" out of date?

Me thinks not. Most people assume this phrase has been outdated by modern gear, I disagree that this phrase has anything to do with gear at all. 

The leader must not fall is more of a statement about the mentality of climbing. We are all up there with the goal of not falling, we all want to do the route clean, falling only happens if it must. Falling is a failure we are trying to overcome.

I can understand that this has been construed to be about how the gear was bad back then and now it's better so now we can fall more, which is true, but I think to completely trust in the gear is a dangerous mistake. First, even a good placement can go bad, second when the gear stays put you can still get severally hurt, and third and most importantly it allows us to justify failure. I accept failure but I will never justify it. 

I believe my ability to do moves at my limit well above crap gear comes directly from my fear of falling. The consequences of a fall is what motivates me. By just trusting the gear you are giving yourself an "out". "It's ok if I give up here because my gear will save me". Imagine the same scenario where you know you will die if you fall, I guarantee that possible consequence will keep you more focused and make you a better climber.

Just like calling a line that someone has top roped 100 times and have every single piece of trad gear pre-clipped to the rope and knowing exactly where it will be placed is trad climbing.

ViperScale wrote:

Just like calling a line that someone has top roped 100 times and have every single piece of trad gear pre-clipped to the rope and knowing exactly where it will be placed is trad climbing.

Wouldn't it be easier to say, "He onsighted it on pro" than to say "He trad climbed it" and then try to change the way everyone in the world uses the word "trad"?

Yeah, except that is how most people use the word "trad."  Hence why applying sport tactics to hard trad climbs is often referred to as "sprad."  When someone says "I'm going trad climbing," it's generally assumed they will be placing gear on the way up.  Anyways...

I'm glad you started a thread on this, as it's a really interesting topic.  Obviously, this phrase will apply if you're going to be doing R/X rated trad climbs; however, what I wonder is: if your fear of falling is what motivates you, what keeps you from just bailing or taking?  Assuming you haven't done something stupid and gotten yourself high enough above your pro that this isn't an option without downclimbing a crux or something...

I certainly agree when I am leading that the leader must never fall.  Though I sometimes do.  Protection, even the best placed piece, is there to save you in the event of a fall, but I sure try hard not to test it.  

Ted Pinson wrote:

Yeah, except that is how most people use the word "trad."  Hence why applying sport tactics to hard trad climbs is often referred to as "sprad."  When someone says "I'm going trad climbing," it's generally assumed they will be placing gear on the way up.  Anyways...

I'm glad you started a thread on this Rhoads, as it's a really interesting topic.  Obviously, this phrase will apply if you're going to be doing R/X rated trad climbs; however, what I wonder is: if your fear of falling is what motivates you, what keeps you from just bailing or taking?  Assuming you haven't done something stupid and gotten yourself high enough above your pro that this isn't an option without downclimbing a crux or something...

Sometimes I bail but I'm talking about those times when falling is not an option. 

As I see it failure is never an option it's a result of poor decisions.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Yeah, except that is how most people use the word "trad."  Hence why applying sport tactics to hard trad climbs is often referred to as "sprad."  When someone says "I'm going trad climbing," it's generally assumed they will be placing gear on the way up. 

If that's the case, then why is ViperScale bringing it up? Are we to believe that he simply decided to assert the meaning of the word trad, even though most people already were saying that? I don't think so.

I've yet to come across a usage of the word "sprad" where the person using it didn't also define the word because nobody knew what it meant, so I have my doubts that it's "often referred to" that way.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Yeah, except that is how most people use the word "trad."  Hence why applying sport tactics to hard trad climbs is often referred to as "sprad."  When someone says "I'm going trad climbing," it's generally assumed they will be placing gear on the way up.  Anyways...

Is soloing a trad line called a rad line and is highballing a trad line a brad line? I'm just an old spraddy daddy so these new terms are confusing to me. 

"Must not fall" is, mostly, not my go to in avoiding death, if I have much choice. I assume I am capable of falling or otherwise messing up, or, getting to that wild chance thing.

Once I've mitigated what it is reasonable to care about, I climb. 

This means I am a complete weenie on that fourth class approach I asked about on here. It also means I have very little fear of falling, once the systems are there, and I have learned this is not true for some. I know good climbers who absolutely hate ever falling, even on a gym top rope. That just astonished me, to learn that about myself.

True, I have far less experience than most of you, but I have had an abundance of falls, including the recent gear fall on a sport route, lol. I downclimbed that at one point, because I could see a fall past that point would be bad, and, "do not fall" would have been a bad solution, well above my abilities and entering into magical thinking.

Understanding a fall is always possible is a better mindset for me. A much better belay for you, also. If I can save your ass, I will give it my best shot. And hope to god you know what you're doing when i know I can't help you if it blows right at this moment.

Best, OLH

Jaren Watson wrote:

Maybe it's not out of date, Tradiban. I like how you've articulated a new definition concerning how the phrase could affect mental state, but would you agree that is indeed a new definition?

In other words, the phrase, as it was understood historically, is likely out of date.

No, I don't think so. I think the phrase has been historically misunderstood. Obviously, to never fall is hyperbole, I think it's originally about a state of mind that allowed them the ability to climb better.

What makes you think it has been misunderstood?  Do you have any evidence that supports your interpretation?  Obviously, lead falls are much more serious than follower falls, so this was a big deal when pro was a lot less reliable.

I think it's fairly contextual. There are many places where it is ill advised for the leader to fall. Remote locations and poor rock quality are two that immediately come to mind. Modern gear has made it less of a concern in many places, I think, but in some places it is still fairly sound.

"The leader must never fall" is what you tell yourself when you're 30 feet above your last bolt on some "moderate" South Platte slab climb...

Honestly I think I've done fewer than 10 routes where falling would have been acceptably safe. Moderates around here tend to be low-angle and/or ledgy. I end up bailing with embarrassing frequency.

As for the revisionist take on the phrase as a statement about mentality... no.

Just so it's clear, the route in the video is a relatively straightforward 10c on good gear

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10803

and was discussed at length 4 years ago

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=539498

full length vid https://youtu.be/PbibTZ7zbEs

So this is stupid. But carry on...

Peter Beal wrote:

Just so it's clear, the route in the video is a relatively straightforward 10c on good gear

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=10803

and was discussed at length 4 years ago

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=539498

full length vid https://youtu.be/PbibTZ7zbEs

So this is stupid. But carry on...

I'm not sure I see the relevance of your post. Can you make it more clear?

"I'm not sure I see the relevance of your post. Can you make it more clear?"

Citing the weekend whipper route as an example of dangerous trad climbing is misleading. Regent Street is actually a safe and reasonable route for anyone  competent at placing gear. Definitely not a "leader must not fall" route. Millstone has quite a few of those however.

Peter Beal wrote:

"I'm not sure I see the relevance of your post. Can you make it more clear?"

Citing the weekend whipper route as an example of dangerous trad climbing is misleading. Regent Street is actually a safe and reasonable route for anyone  competent at placing gear. Definitely not a "leader must not fall" route. Millstone has quite a few of those however.

I missed the part that video was from the Weekend Whipper. Ok, now I get it.

What's the origin of the phrase? At least time frame? I'm pretty sure there was a time when the leader, due to hemp ropes and soft iron pins, was not likely to survive a fall of any consequence. That is no longer true and that is a gear difference (assuming application by a reasonably competent user).

Even the guy in this video, who either botched his placements or went forward, knowingly or unknowingly, on bad gear, still escaped relatively unscathed.

Anonymous wrote:

@Bill Czajkowski I don't know. The SuperTopo thread says Geoffrey Winthrop Young mentions it in one of his books though.

It's pretty clear he, and so the phrase, predates nylon ropes.

The phrase is still pretty relevant on Niagara Escarpment limestone.  Questionable rock quality and unreliable protection can lead to poor outcomes for leader falls.  Some highly experienced and skilled trad leaders have learned that lesson the hard way here.

Nate as in a lot of things, a happy medium can be found. A steep well protected route can be fallen off of without too much danger if the risks are competently managed. Just around the corner from Regent Street is Edge Lane an arete with a similar technical grade but with an unprotected balancy crux at 50 feet. Falling from that is probably fatal. If you read the UKC discussion, even the leader in the video acknowledges he messed up. I did Regent Street ages ago and it is pretty safe crack climbing. I could never summon the courage to do Edge Lane even though I went up to the commitment zone and climbed back down many times. To me that's the difference. Generally climbers are perceptive enough to recognize the difference between actual and perceived danger and know when not to fall.

Bill, the expression comes from the early days of mountaineering on hemp ropes and no protection, where a fall would take everyone else on the rope along with the leader, unless of course the rope broke! English mountaineers in the 19th and early 20th century were raised in a very "sporting" atmosphere where it was said that "A climber who would use a piton would shoot a fox!"

Nylon ropes along with easily placed or fixed protection radically changed that and the sport jumped ahead as a result.