Rock and Ice has gone off the deep end with girth hitches...

I stand corrected! You all should take a look at the Rock and Rescue vid and look at the PDF. The Metolius PAS, broke and the Nylon PAS did not in the same test configuration. 

"Again, it's all about risk recognition, prioritization and management."

This is exactly the thing. I watched a person rappelling in bare feet the other day, without a back-up.....then moments later she chided her "pupil" for not using locking carabiners on the bolts at a two-bolt stance when building an anchor. The chances of two non-lockers coming undone at a stance or losing control of a rappel in Eldorado Canyon with climbers above you? Failure to prioritize/identify risks. Geez. R&I occasionally posts worthwhile stuff (see Mark Smiley's latest vid on upgrading anchors), but they seem to have a disdain for any outsiders who might help 'em with their research. Why not call Jesse at Petzl for a quote? Rigging for Rescue for actual testing? The technical director at the AMGA? ACMG? 

Here's another idea: use the rope instead of a PAS, as much as is possible. When rappelling, keep the rope in the system, as much as possible (when getting on/off rappel, at intermediate anchors, etc.); it can be done. When you need to extend a rappel, do so with nylon if you have it, Dyneema if you don't. The folks at ENSA teach it very simply---when on a non-dynamic tether (I'd consider a nylon tether/PAS non-dynamic), keep it weighted. Removes all possibility of a FF1 or FF2....

I think somebody mentioned a load-limiter built into a PAS---yeah, that'll be the next thing. The Beal leash/tether thing built of rope is a good call if somebody's really into a dedicated leash/tether. I don't know the Connect, but there's a Kong product that slips under high loads, believe it's built of dynamic climbing rope.....

Anyway, yeah, none of us get the mileage of Todd Skinner, so the article seems like it's hyping a problem most of us don't have. I hate girth-hitching through my harness tie-ins...it cinches up junk. And the material saws on itself when weighting/unweighting (that worries me with Dyneema; nylon not as much), whereas a girth to the belay tightens once and that's that. Then I remove it at the end of the day. As for cinching my junk, I'm southern Italian, so I realize I'm marvelously well endowed*, so maybe that doesn't apply to you northerners. 

RC

*hung like a bull hamster

coppolillo wrote:

"... I'm southern Italian, so I realize I'm marvelously well endowed*, ...

*hung like a bull hamster

That's brilliant... thanks for the laugh!

Mark Hudon wrote:

I stand corrected! You all should take a look at the Rock and Rescue vid and look at the PDF. The Metolius PAS, broke and the Nylon PAS did not in the same test configuration. 

Yeah, sure, but again, your body would be completely ripped up under those loads so it's kind of a mute point and irrelevant..

Healyje wrote:

Yeah, sure, but again, your body would be completely ripped up under those loads so it's kind of a mute point and irrelevant..

True.

I wonder if this thread will get to 20

Rock & Ice is not trustworthy. Remember this garbage analysis?

http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/euro-death-knot-mysteriously-fails

It muddied the waters on what should have been a simple issue- someone used the wrong knot- and made climbing more dangerous for their readers.

I don't think R&I has done anything to restore our trust, and I think we should be ignoring R&I and leaving the magazine on shelves until they have.

Not totally checking the system before using the system.

Eric Fjellanger wrote:

Rock & Ice is not trustworthy. Remember this garbage analysis?

http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/euro-death-knot-mysteriously-fails

It muddied the waters on what should have been a simple issue- someone used the wrong knot- and made climbing more dangerous for their readers.

I don't think R&I has done anything to restore our trust, and I think we should be ignoring R&I and leaving the magazine on shelves until they have.

As knots go the Edk isn't a great one but it is servicable in the situations that it is most often used.   I use it to avoid stuck ropes but I'd prefer a bomber knot.   The "this knot needs long tails because it slips " really doesn't sit well with me.

djh860 wrote:

As knots go the Edk isn't a great one but it is servicable in the situations that it is most often used.   I use it to avoid stuck ropes but I'd prefer a bomber knot.   The "this knot needs long tails because it slips " really doesn't sit well with me.

Doesn't slip. It rolls.

Just make sure your ropes aren't threadbare when you tie an edk or there will be another article about edk has failed again, with a footnote that the ropes would have broken anyways. 

It's a good goal. It's the bold flash of threads. 

wivanoff wrote:

I like it.  Gonna use that phrase in the future when dealing with n00bs.

Make sure you drill it into their heads that that means using 2 ropes, 2 belay devices, 2 belay biners, 2 belay loops, etc.

Khoi wrote:

Make sure you drill it into their heads that that means using 2 ropes, 2 belay devices, 2 belay biners, 2 belay loops, etc.

Two partners. Two pair of panties. 

Eric Fjellanger wrote:

Rock & Ice is not trustworthy. Remember this garbage analysis?

http://www.rockandice.com/climbing-accidents/euro-death-knot-mysteriously-fails

It muddied the waters on what should have been a simple issue- someone used the wrong knot- and made climbing more dangerous for their readers.

I don't think R&I has done anything to restore our trust, and I think we should be ignoring R&I and leaving the magazine on shelves until they have.

No magazine gives good technical advice, but at least R&I isn't as bad as climbing magazine. Pretty much everything they post is either outdated or just plain garbage, as far as technical skills. 

And as for the edk, multiple tests have shown the edk won't roll due to forces normally generated rappelling. I recall the rolling point to be somewhere around 800 or 900 lbs and after it rolls the first time the force to roll again is much higher. IMO, 6" tails would be acceptable for me, but I choose to honor the 2' tail formality just to avoid other people questioning my knot. 

Marc801 C wrote:

Two partners. Two pair of panties. 

I've always heard that multiple partners is a good thing... if you can swing it.

Another thought...I usually girth hitch through both tie in points on my harness, but there was one time where i wasn't paying attention and only got the top tie in point.  It was fine, better than only getting the bottom point - I would have probably flipped upside down.  I can see someone making an argument that by only using the belay loop to girth hitch to, there would be no possibility of missing a tie in point and therefore flipping upside down or losing your balance.

The sawing action is pretty specific to jumaring a rope, as you step up alternating with each foot. There may be other actions that can do this also.

Lead belaying and catching falls doesn't really wear against the loop in the same way. I'd guess 1 catch may be equivalent to stepping up once, if that.

Like I said, understand the reason behind the recommendation, and decide for yourself based on your use case. I'm not telling you to do it one way ir another. 

Xam wrote:

Doesn't slip. It rolls.

That too

lol 6 pages?

Rock and Ice has advertisers that make harnesses.

Providing eyeballs for those advertisers is how R&I makes money.

If the advertisers (who have liability if a harness fails) recommend something about the use of their product that they are liable for it goes wrong it only makes sense that R&I would share their recommendation.

Do what you want but R&I is only using reasonable judgment based on what the makers recommend.