Rock and Ice has gone off the deep end with girth hitches...

Healyje wrote:

Yes, it will. As rgold states, Skinner's accident was an outlier by a guy who put a shitload of mileage and thrutching on an ultralite harness - it's not going to be a problem girth hitching a leash through the tie-in points on a normal person's regular harness. Should a harness be inspected on occasion? Sure, but a couple of times a year will probably cover it. Should you replace it some time before it's completely ratty? Sure (I just did because I know friends in the business would take one look at it and go, "dude...").

Again, it's all about risk recognition, prioritization and management. And, hey, there's probably a couple thousand droppings and rap/lower mix-ups happen for every anchor or belay loop that fails. The next time you go climbing your belayer is your #1 risk unless you're otherwise just in way over your head or otherwise prone to fucking up.

Oh, a PAS is 22kn and it's a pretty safe bet that in a leash fall your spine and hips are going to break and you are more or less going to get cut in half before the PAS breaks.

I don't get how any of that supports the idea of only attaching tethers to your tie in points.  How is that going to make a difference, when those also fail?

Ted Pinson wrote:

I don't get how any of that supports the idea of only attaching tethers to your tie in points.  How is that going to make a difference, when those also fail?

You'll be dead or wish you were if you're talking about a leash fall. If you're talking about normal wear and tear it's not going to be an issue unless you are severely abusing your harness over a ton of mileage. And if you are, your harness overall is going to look pretty ratty and embarrassing before it's going to be in any danger of failing.

Healyje wrote:

You'll be dead or wish you were if you're talking about a leash fall. If you're talking about normal where and tear it's not going to be an issue unless you are severely abusing your harness over a ton of mileage. And if you are, your harness overall is going to look pretty ratty and embarrassing before it's going to be in any danger of failing.

Yup. 

To satisfy my curiosity, I cut apart the belay loop and the tie in points of a 4 year old black diamond harness. There was no plastic or other hard material embedded in the tie in points, just webbing. So the idea that the tie in points are more resistant the wear in this particular model of harness is very doubtful. It was equally difficult to cut the belay loop and the tie in points,

Healyje wrote:

You'll be dead or wish you were if you're talking about a leash fall. If you're talking about normal where and tear it's not going to be an issue unless you are severely abusing your harness over a ton of mileage. And if you are, your harness overall is going to look pretty ratty and embarrassing before it's going to be in any danger of failing.

I'm...really confused.  What does this have to do with girth hitching your tether to your hard points instead of your belay loop?  I feel like you're making a really strong case for why it doesn't matter but you're saying it does.

Yes, the degree of obsession and unease 'modern' climbers exhibit towards low-risk nuances of climbing while blithely ignoring the high-risk ones is endlessly fascinating - I suspect it's because accidents from the low-risk side of things are outliers and so novel in that respect creating undue attention and angst around the possibility.

Eric wrote:

This should be good for at least 10 pages

No doubt, let's see if this gets it moving;

Most belay loops are roughly the same size as a large locker. Why not roll one through the hard points, lock it, girth the loop and locker (together) as they are side by side and jug like a madman.............. ;)

Ted Pinson wrote:How is that going to make a difference, when those also fail?...   I'm...really confused.  What does this have to do with girth hitching your tether to your hard points instead of your belay loop?  I feel like you're making a really strong case for why it doesn't matter but you're saying it does.

Well, mainly because those aren't going to fail - your body is going to dramatically fail long before the hard points or leash hitch do...

John Barritt wrote:

No doubt, let's see if this gets it moving;

Most belay loops are roughly the same size as a large locker. Why not roll one through the hard points, lock it, girth the loop and locker (together) as they are side by side and jug like a madman.............. ;)

How does a madman jug, exactly? Is it different than a non-madman (a... gladman? a sadman?) would jug?

Tomily ma wrote:

I don't always FF2 on my PAS, but when I do it's girth hitched to my harness. 

That's some funny shit right there. 

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

How does a madman jug, exactly? Is it different than a non-madman (a... gladman? a sadman?) would jug?

Madmen don't even use jumars or PAS.  They just hand-over-hand up the rope...

Stagg54 Taggart wrote:

Madmen don't even use jumars or PAS.  They just hand-over-hand up the rope...

Ah yes, they are from a different era, aren't they? Perhaps you'd be well served not to address safety-related climbing issues by asking yourself, "What would Don Draper do?"

Healyje wrote:

Well, mainly because those aren't going to fail - your body is going to dramatically fail long before the hard points or leash hitch do...

I agree.  Does the same not also apply to belay loops?

Stagg54 Taggart wrote:

Madmen don't even use jumars or PAS.  They just hand-over-hand up the rope...

I think you are confusing "Batman" with 'Madman"...................... ;)

Andrew Krajnik wrote:

How does a madman jug, exactly? Is it different than a non-madman (a... gladman? a sadman?) would jug?

According to Barritt's guide to climbing lingo:

"Jug like a madman": The act of ascending a fixed rope using jumars, prussic knots or a combination of like devices in an extremely fast manner. 

See also: "Jug like a maniac" "jumar like the rope's on fire" and "race the pig" 

JB

John Barritt wrote:

According to Barritt's guide to climbing lingo:

"Jug like a madman": The act of ascending a fixed rope using jumars, prussic knots or a combination of like devices in an extremely fast manner. 

See also: "Jug like a maniac" "jumar like the rope's on fire" and "race the pig" 

JB

I see. I don't have a copy of that particular guide. Any idea where I can find one? It seems to have some incredibly useful beta!

Also not all belay loops are the same. I got a  backup/loaner CAMP energy harness just cause its cheap (<$20). The belay loop on that feels a lot thinner on than my BD solution harness (Both nylon). I'm more than comfortable girth hitching to the BD harness but probably wouldn't to the CAMP one.

Ted Pinson wrote:

I agree.  Does the same not also apply to belay loops?

It does according to rgold, but I'm not a particular fan of belay loops to begin with and prefer to have my tie-in points cinched together regardless so using them works for me.

Oh yeah, some mighty fine over-reaction up in here.

I sometimes use two slings as PAS, sometimes I girth hitch one through tie-in points (I find it easier to untie) and the other on my belay loop. Whaaaa? You binary folks..

The only safe way to do this is to check your gear for wear, both Daisy and Harness regardless of what point you use.

My friend Todd got complacent and left it on the belay loop unchecked for far too long probably because it makes getting the harness on and off easier or something. Weighting and un-weighting the Daisy will cause wear on both the belay loop and harness tie in points. If you use the belay loop regularly remove the Daisy, inspect the loop and be sure not to use the same spot over and over.

There may be some testing impressing us with how strong some belay loops are when partially cut/abraded, and I have no reason to say they are wrong per se, but they also represent very small sample sizes. I don't like risking my life to small sample sizes. I use the belay loop for my daisy, but have backed them up with a simple tied system since 1980 or so...if you are gonna hang in a harness for who knows how long on El Cap I like looking at redundancy for hours, not those single things that if they fail will cost me or my partner our lives.

Do what you will, but you must regularly inspect anything your life depends on.