Passive vs Active: Discuss

Wait a second, what about the 3rd type, passive active. Im talking about placing tricams, hexes, and certain types of nuts in to that they are actively caming. I gues big bros could go in this category as well. I will say there is nothing like placing a nice #7 tricam or a 6 7 nested tricam

Pretty much been the same for me in the active vs passive pro department regardless of NH, CO, NV, OR, WA, CA, IL, NY or AU, though I will admit Thai limestone was a bit more challenging for both active and passive - went for a lot more natural pro there.

ViperScale wrote:

I am assuming you are just trolling. Maybe just where you climb isn't like the rest of the world and is just full of simple easy constrictions.

Or he has developed a skill that becomes quicker and easier with proficiency and recognized the potential pitfalls of another skill that can be deceptive?

Obviously, if all you place are cams, you're going to be better (and faster) at placing cams.

Ted Pinson wrote:

Obviously, if all you place are cams, you're going to be better (and faster) at placing cams.

Well, that sure would be nice, but rather what I see more often with people who mainly rack cams is they're more prone to just slam-n-go without knowing what they're really getting with those placements and seldom sling appropriately. Also why you read about a lot of pulled placements.

A double rack of cams is helpful in giving women the impression that you are more financially secure than you actually are.

Buddy Smith wrote:

I'm old school. I lived in a van in 94 and climbed all over the country. All the rack talk now seems to focus on cams. Are you guys afraid of passive pro? I freaking love hexes, nuts, tricams, and offset nuts! What's up? Have we gotten weaker? Faster? What's up with the threads where we dis the passive pro? I love bomber pieces of massive pro! What's the problem? A new trad rack should not be based on cams that a new leader cannot place without walking danger. Learn to do it all! Is it just me? Please enlighten me because I'm wondering if the new gen is wussier or smarter. Seriously, enlighten me! And don't say that the routes are harder. Get stronger, bitches.

And later in this thread you mention you're 52. 

Hey! Youngster! I dropped all my hexes off my regular rack sometime around 1980 and just used SLCDs and stoppers most of the time on most routes. All the rack talk *then* also focused on cams. That was before the (accepted) existence of 5.12. Use whatever makes you happy.

Healyje wrote:

Well, that sure would be nice, but rather what I see more often with people who mainly rack cams is they're more prone to just slam-n-go without knowing what they're really getting with those placements and seldom sling appropriately. Also why you read about a lot of pulled placements.

Yeah, I think it's a lot easier to overtrust cams, especially when you don't consider if (and where) a cam could walk.  I think this also helps explain why there are so many fixed cams now...

Brandon.Phillips wrote:

A double rack of cams is helpful in giving women the impression that you are more financially secure than you actually are.

You're definitely getting that second date if you have doubles of totems. 

Heck, I'll flip for totems.

Buddy Smith wrote:

As I said, I'm back on the rock after a fifteen year hiatus. I'm 52. I'm getting stronger myself.

Dude... one old dog to another....   Cams ARE really really good.   Learn the weak points of them and the strong points, also. 

But keep the nuts and hexes, they are still usefull and effictive, especally when you need to ditch something to get down.

And at 52 your a young pup don't waste your youth, go out and get strong and get better and when you do-- go and do a Big climb (kids call it TRAD nowdays) post up a good TR and you will be a climbing GOD in the eyes of most "climbers".

have fun

92 is not old school and 52 is not old.

Gotta second that...

http://gripped.com/video/watch-steve-mcclure-britains-first-5-15b/

Ok, so he's a little young, but still...;)

when I started climbing trad I did it with a double set of nuts, and a single set of cams.  The more I climbed, the more I realized that cams opened up harder routes more than nuts did.  for most new england climbs (and especially gunks) I have stopped carrying double set of nuts, and carry pretty close to a double set of cams (bd through 3 or 4, aliens and a couple randoms for small).  

Cams can be placed like passively like a nut but nuts can't be placed actively like a cam.

Tim Lutz wrote:

If by cams you mean 'sporto cheat machines'

Make Trad Crusty Again

#MTCA

When cams first arrived - a few years before sport climbing - there were indeed complaints that they make protection so easy that they are cheating and routes done with cams should be a grade lower.

Same thing was said about Fires, the first shoes with sticky rubber.

Buddy Smith wrote:

Have we gotten ... Faster? 

This. Cams are faster to place and clip for the leader and faster to clean (especially if weighted). Are there placements that are better for passive pro? Yup. Do we use passive pro in those placements? Yup. Do we place passive pro in a placement that's just as good for active pro just because "that's how the hardmen back in the day did it? Nope. 

The better question is "Why are you conflating the the subtext about the efficiency of active pro with a fear of using passive pro? Do you still us MS-DOS? Happy that it works just as well but takes twice as long because you're "oldschool"? How's your rotary phone? Still pissed at your friends that have more 8s and 9s in their phone numbers? How's your crank-start jalopy doing? Get pissed when it takes 10 minutes to start your car when the tech guy across the street doesn't even take his key-fob out of his pocket and just sits in the car and drives away immediately without even making a sound?

Healyje wrote in response to ViperScale's "2b. ...and alot faster than passive pro."  

2b) Not the case at all if you know what you're doing.

&

beensandbagged wrote:

I don't get this, do you care to elaborate ? There is nothing more basic then a restriction and a wedge where a cam with multiply moving parts there just seems to be more to watch and consider.

I think you're focusing upon the time to place the piece in the placement out of context. Few to a minority of trad leaders (that I've seen admittedly) climb with multiple cams on the same biner whereas almost all carry their nuts on 1-2 biners. Thus a cam placement is unclip from rack, place cam, clip cam, go. A passive nut placement is unclip nuts from harness and sort to find the nut size (or sort the nut size from the harness and take single piece off) place nut, reclip biner of remaining nuts, unclip draw, clip draw to nut, clip rope, go. When the cleaner gets to the placement with a cam it's pull trigger, remove cam, clip to harness, go. With the nut it's pray it comes right out or else settle in with your nut tool, then clip nut to harness and go. (Not to mention that I'll kill for a second that finally gets the idea that you should be racking your gear as you clean so that when you get to the belay it's not this hodgepodge of random nuts on random draws and waiting for the second to sort through those. let alone the absolute dream of a second that actually reloops an alpine draw back to it's shorter form rather than handing you a long floppy alpine draw like a sad John Holmes after a particularly grueling shoot.

Marc801 C wrote:

When cams first arrived - a few years before sport climbing - there were indeed complaints that they make protection so easy that they are cheating and routes done with cams should be a grade lower.

Same thing was said about Fires, the first shoes with sticky rubber.

Sounds like the bigwall campfire when talking about Beaks and Totems

climbing friend,

like alex honnlove solo so free, it does feels so much better without utilizing any protection, yes?

kevin deweese wrote:

Sounds like the bigwall campfire when talking about Beaks and Totems

Pretty much.

I also once was yelled at by a famous climber because I was top roping a pitch in the Gunks that I didn't want to (probably couldn't) lead.