Passive vs Active: Discuss

Buddy Smith wrote:

I'm old school. I lived in a van in 94 and climbed all over the country.  

This is my new favorite quote.  It's a great preface to any forum post.

Good times. I wasn't trashing a generation of climbers, but axing a question. No harm in axing. I agree with so many of your answers. A new trad rack should not just be a mass of nuts, but I honestly think that cams are more dangerous in the hands of beginners. Cams are more versatile in the right hands, this is true. On review, perhaps my verbiage was a tad harsh, but lighten up, Cats and kittens! I was defending an entire category of pro against a seeming onslaught of abuse. I will be glad to lick the spoon.

Uhhhh...didn't cams become available from Jardine in something like 1978?  ...And despite clean, passive pro being widely available then, weren't people still pounding pins as pro at that time? What is this old school crap?

climbing friend,

CAMS ARE BETTAR!!! For obvious, they are quicker and easier for the placeings with less skill, and are at least the somewhat the donald harder to be moving into a useless position and at least somewhat more multiple directionality when compare to your tiny little nuts!

do you see the cutting edge trad climb of this day being ascent on all your tiny nuts? I think not.

I was so hoping for a reply from Aleks!

cdec wrote:

I was so hoping for a reply from Aleks!

Climbing friend,

ho ho ho! ha ha! myah!!!

It also definitely does appear to be a regional/national thing.  Having learned to trad climb in England I found that the standard beginner rack would be of nuts (maybe doubled with offsets), hexes of some sort, and slings.  Once people had been leading for a bit and were starting to push grade more (into HVS or E1s & 2s) did the investment into cams start, but while still carrying passive.  Admittedly, my perspective also was likely skewed by climbing with and being a broke student, so that very well would heavily influence things as well.  Still, it seemed like at the crags passive, including through hexes, kept its role and many racks lacked in cams.  

DanielJames wrote:

It also definitely does appear to be a regional/national thing.  Having learned to trad climb in England I found that the standard beginner rack would be of nuts (maybe doubled with offsets), hexes of some sort, and slings.

I always got the impression the English had more financial constraints than the Yanks when it came to buying climbing gear. US tends to have pretty good prices, as well as being generally affluent. For some reason I have this image of the former saving up and carefully buying one cam at a time - carefully selected for maximum utility, whilst the latter just goes out and buys a set of c4s. Having been to neither country, this is all speculation from observing the different communities online!

r m wrote:

I always got the impression the English had more financial constraints than the Yanks when it came to buying climbing gear. 

That very well may be the case!  It definitely was true as students, but come to think of it DMM was king among everyone I knew (surprisingly little Wild Country come to think of it) and their cams tend to be a bit pricey, leading to single cam purchases that seemed useful, as you said. 

What is this old school crap?

1. I get it. I misspoke. All I was saying is that I love big giant solid passive pro. I've been defeated here. I still love big passive pro! Are cams better? Well, yeah, if you have the money and the nads! I love slotted hexes and nuts and I trust them. They give me the confidence to climb on. At the end of the day that's the name of the game. What do you trust enough to do the crux? Climb on Cats and Kittens! Climb on! I'm a celebrator, not a hater! I'm sorry if I gave anyone the wrong impression!

I'm not old school, but I have some old school tendencies, e.g. I like to carry and even sometimes use (gasp) tricams.

That said, I generally prefer cams over nuts. Almost always much easier & faster to place & clean, almost always bomber. I reach for them first when leading and appreciate them when following since I don't have to reach for the nut tool to clean. 

Unless you're cutting weight for an alpine endeavour, there's no good reason to muck about with passive pro when you can just plug and chug cams. Using cams, you climb harder and faster, and isn't that the point?

And because this is MP, I feel the need to state that I am fully aware that sometime nuts work better and sometimes you want to save your cams. 

I'm old and old school, but shit, my tricams, titons and hexes have been hanging untouched on the wall for the last 20-25 years. 

I do rack a double set of HB (DMM) Alloy Offsets and a couple of the bigger brassy's, though, and will go with a bomb passive placement over a cam every single time.

Cam's are fabulous, but climbing without developing an eye for passive pro? Kind of stupid and sketch...

r m wrote:

I always got the impression the English had more financial constraints than the Yanks when it came to buying climbing gear. 

I think it's more climbing culture (or rock type) than financial. I've never climbed in the UK but I get the impression from the UK forums that passive pro is first choice before active. Cams were more readily available in the UK than US to begin with, yet they still seem to prefer passive gear. While most US climbers now seem to eschew hexes, UK climbers seem to embrace them. 

Then there's the whole double rope thing. I love leading on my doubles. Double ropes are more $$ (or £) than single, yet seem more common in UK.

And (back on topic) my confidence goes way up when I sink a nice solid passive piece. A lot of newer climbers thinks cams are plug and play - I think that could be a dangerous attitude.. 

So IMO this is a pointless discussion, unless you only climb really easy (or are comfortable essentially soloing).  Where do you climb, and on what kind of rock?  That should determine your rack.  Anything else is a waste of time.  The only thing that would be truly "old school" would be showing up to Indian Creek with an all passive rack, but this would also be incredibly stupid.

Chocolate vs Peanut Butter: Discuss

To bad you are so young, if you had been living in your van years ago with all the drugs you would realize that all placements are active and passive pro is just a myth!

ViperScale wrote:

Cams are way faster, period.  They work better in the chossy limestone around here that does not give up a lot of parallel sided cracks.  I climb with a guy that is really good with creative nut placements in our crappy rock.  He works hard for nut placements on easy terrain.  He is slow, and does not see the advantage of getting good at quickly placing cams.  I try to not be like him.

Cams can take an equal amount of creativity to get really solid ones in "pods" around here.  I only really place a nut when it's a gimme.  Tricams are pretty good around here in the Rockies, so it pays off to be good at placing those.

Steven Kovalenko wrote:

Cams are way faster, period. 

Again, not the case at all if you know what you're doing. If anything just the opposite sometimes if you want good cam placements that aren't blind slap-n-go.

Healyje wrote:

Again, not the case at all if you know what you're doing. If anything just the opposite sometimes if you want good cam placements that aren't blind slap-n-go.

I am assuming you are just trolling. Maybe just where you climb isn't like the rest of the world and is just full of simple easy constrictions.