Bad belay or not? Hair Lip, Suicide

Pinkpoint!

Tradiban wrote:

People don't clip that added bolt because they aren't looking for a challenge, they clip it because not doing so forces them to be reckless. By placing the bolt you change the nature of the risk from a challenge to just being reckless. 

I doubt either of us have accurate numbers regarding how many climbers climb for the risk but if these people are in it for the workout wouldn't they be happier indoors or at a sport crag anyway? I don't see a reason for anyone to bring a climb down to their own level rather than rise up to it.

So you are saying we want to make routes on purpose to force people to be reckless? That just screams mental problems when you really think about it. I won't hurt myself but if other people set it up I can find an excuse to do something that will possibility hurt me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35sfp9k5avI

ViperScale wrote:

So you are saying we want to make routes on purpose to force people to be reckless? That just screams mental problems when you really think about it. I won't hurt myself but if other people set it up I can find an excuse to do something that will possibility hurt me?

Read it again. It would be reckless for a climber to skip the bolt. If it didn't exist it the risk would be squarely in the hands of the climber, adding the bolt changes the risk relationship with the climb. 

Tradiban wrote:

Read it again. It would be reckless for a climber to skip the bolt. If it didn't exist it the risk would be squarely in the hands of the climber, adding the bolt changes the risk relationship with the climb. 

It doesn't change the risk it changes the choices you can make but the risk when you skip a bolt and the risk when there is no bolt and you climb it is the same.

ViperScale wrote:

So you are saying we want to make routes on purpose to force people to be reckless? That just screams mental problems when you really think about it. I won't hurt myself but if other people set it up I can find an excuse to do something that will possibility hurt me?

No one is forcing anyone to climb a route, if some one choose to do a run out route that's their choice, it's not being reckless it's assessing the risk and consequence and making a decision as to whether they are ready or not, same as soloing. Also viper scale you humble brag of your 300ft route, just curious, what grade was it and had you done it before?

that guy named seb wrote:

No one is forcing anyone to climb a route, if some one choose to do a run out route that's their choice, it's not being reckless it's assessing the risk and consequence and making a decision as to whether they are ready or not, same as soloing. Also viper scale you humble brag of your 300ft route, just curious, what grade was it and had you done it before?

That is the 2 sides of the argument though going back to the video I posted. 1 side is thinking fuck others we don't want more people climbing lets leave it dangerous so they won't climb and my side is make routes reasonably safe so people can choose to attempt it without risking their life. Climbing is always going to be a risk no matter what, I know routes I have climbed that are completely different now because a car size block of rock fell on them. Anyone could have been on that route when it happened and died. The point isn't to get ride of risk / danger completely, the point of my side is saying hey make it reasonably safe.

5.8 is the hardest thing I have ever free soloed and it was only small section at that grade most of it was much easier.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35sfp9k5avI

Mark,

That was one funny video. Thanks.

ViperScale wrote:

That is the 2 sides of the argument though going back to the video I posted. 1 side is thinking fuck others we don't want more people climbing lets leave it dangerous so they won't climb and my side is make routes reasonably safe so people can choose to attempt it without risking their life. Climbing is always going to be a risk no matter what, I know routes I have climbed that are completely different now because a car size block of rock fell on them. Anyone could have been on that route when it happened and died. The point isn't to get ride of risk / danger completely, the point of my side is saying hey make it reasonably safe.

5.8 is the hardest thing I have ever free soloed and it was only small section at that grade most of it was much easier.

I half agree with you. My view on bolting goes like this

Multipitch, bolt belays and a jesus bolt just above the belay after that make it as run out as you want I don't care as long as no one decks out.

Single pitch, if you will deck out when you fall off the crux it deserves a bolt if it's 20 meters of well protected 5.10 then a unprotectable 5.12 for 10 meters it doesn't need a bolt, If it's 10 meters of unprotectable of 5.8 and then a protectable crux of 5.10 it doesn't need a bolt, if it's 10 meters of protectable climbing but then a 20 meter run out crux it deserves a bolt.

Top outs should probably be bolted as much possible to avoid erosion to the top of the crag if the top out is super stable then it of course doesn't really matter.

As far as you thinking not adding bolts is some elitist plot to stop all the gumbies hang dogging their way up some classic 5.11 i have to disagree, no one is trying to just say fuck u i don't want you to climb this it has more down to one persons 5.10 is another persons 5.5.

 I am pretty happy on sight soloing 5.10 and will solo 5.11 if i have good beta or the crux is near the ground this means for me is a 5.10 runout is no big deal for me and i'm fairly comfortable running out 5.11 now lets take Honnold, he's solo'd 5.13 so a 5.12 runout is no big deal for him and 5.13 he would be fairly comfortable with. Now for you your hardest solo is 5.8 so you could probably onsight solo comfortably 5.7 so on lead you are probably pretty comfortable with a runout 5.8. 

Now if everyone listed put up a 5.11 route and had the options to bolt we would see huge variations in how things are bolted, that's all it is no devious plot just different abilities.

that guy named seb wrote:

I half agree with you. My view on bolting goes like this

Multipitch, bolt belays and a jesus bolt just above the belay after that make it as run out as you want I don't care as long as no one decks out.

Single pitch, if you will deck out when you fall off the crux it deserves a bolt if it's 20 meters of well protected 5.10 then a unprotectable 5.12 for 10 meters it doesn't need a bolt, If it's 10 meters of unprotectable of 5.8 and then a protectable crux of 5.10 it doesn't need a bolt, if it's 10 meters of protectable climbing but then a 20 meter run out crux it deserves a bolt.

Top outs should probably be bolted as much possible to avoid erosion to the top of the crag if the top out is super stable then it of course doesn't really matter.

As far as you thinking not adding bolts is some elitist plot to stop all the gumbies hang dogging their way up some classic 5.11 i have to disagree, no one is trying to just say fuck u i don't want you to climb this it has more down to one persons 5.10 is another persons 5.5.

 I am pretty happy on sight soloing 5.10 and will solo 5.11 if i have good beta or the crux is near the ground this means for me is a 5.10 runout is no big deal for me and i'm fairly comfortable running out 5.11 now lets take Honnold, he's solo'd 5.13 so a 5.12 runout is no big deal for him and 5.13 he would be fairly comfortable with. Now for you your hardest solo is 5.8 so you could probably onsight solo comfortably 5.7 so on lead you are probably pretty comfortable with a runout 5.8. 

Now if everyone listed put up a 5.11 route and had the options to bolt we would see huge variations in how things are bolted, that's all it is no devious plot just different abilities.

How about, do w/e the fuck you want ground up, its your neck and your route. Others can respect it or stay the fuck off or top rope it.

Top Down, you have a responsibility to not make it any more dangerous than it was for you to inspect, clean and practice the moves = not dangerous at all.

Easy Tut, have you seen V's ( rhymes with Myrashenko, . . . ah .  . oops rhymes with Italy ) have you seen his latest share? 

Ironically, photo courtesy of "way runout

"THE FUTURE OF CLIMBING"

http//m.epictv.com/player/metro-player/606188

https://m.epictv.com/player/metro-player/606188

ViperScale wrote:

... I have climbed a 500ft route that a single mistake past around 50ft most likely would have been death. 

Maybe you were off route.

Pretty sure I was on route because if I had gone to the left or right of the route it turned int o5.12 / 5.11 and I can't free solo that.

Viper, I have one route on my meager MP tick list that is an R. Basically, no protection.

Yet I climbed it. I do not have any desire for death or injury, so how did my partner and I get up the thing?

A huge part of the attraction of climbing is working out the mental puzzles such as this. If this fun route was bolted to be made "safe" it would be climbed more, perhaps, but it would also be totally ruined.

We also went up some routes that are hardly ever repeated since they went up many decades ago. They are right next to extremely popular routes, too, not hidden away somewhere. I managed most of that also, and it was quite fun. That is never even going on my tick list so others can have the joy of unlocking the puzzle an FA gave us over 40 years ago.

I get what you are saying, Viper, really I do, but, I am one of those who disagrees.

Best, OLH

And, I have delivered hundreds of belays where a single mistake would mean your death. We've all survived, so far. ;-)

The other day I watched that video that M. Schneider just shared and cringed pretty hard throughout. 

The first time I climbed Sundance at Suicide it was my first time climbing with that particular partner, we  established a basic understanding of each other's experience at the car without getting into grade grubbing and agreed to back each other up on whatever routes the other would like to climb. 

I wanted to go for Sundance and expressed my anxiety at never having led much at the grade in this area despite the cruxs being pretty well protected. 

My partnersaid "if I get through the crux and pitch off during the 5.6R section, I deserve it"  so I laughed and proceeded to climb. 

My partner was Tradiban And everything went swimmingly. 

you have to have respect for the routes you climb and the history they carry and also for yourself enough to not get yourself into trouble. It's part of the game and I love it! 

And for the record I used my new found confidence after leading Sundance later that day and took it over to Mickey Mantle 5.8R and got pretty damn puckered! But I'm still super glad i climbed both routes and I'd never ever think of having them be any other way. 

My three cents 

Oh and to stay on topic that belay on hairlip looks fine to me. I watched that video a while back and it actually got me stoked to go for it eventually. 

Thanks Lou!

The real truth is that I think people who bring a climb down to their own level are taking the easy way out. That's weak sauce and climbing isn't about taking the easy road. Never has been and never will. The easy road bores me and I'm offended by people who always want to take that easy road, in climbing and life. In life I call them "lazy". If you want to take the easy road just stick to sport climbing or top roping, those have everything you need from the sport and don't pull others down an easy road they don't want to take.

Our fellow in the op vid sacked up and took the "whip". Bravo, I say. Hair Lip is a hairy one and deserves respect, if it was a clip up it wouldn't be exciting.

Tradiban wrote:

Thanks Lou!

The real truth is that I think people who bring a climb down to their own level are taking the easy way out. That's weak sauce and climbing isn't about taking the easy road. Never has been and never will. The easy road bores me and I'm offended by people who always want to take that easy road, in climbing and life. In life I call them "lazy". If you want to take the easy road just stick to sport climbing or top roping, those have everything you need from the sport and don't pull others down an easy road they don't want to take.

Our fellow in the op vid sacked up and took the "whip". Bravo, I say. Hair Lip is a hairy one and deserves respect, if it was a clip up it wouldn't be exciting.

This. Not as exciting and not as memorable.

ie if you can't climb the face of Half Dome, just take the damn cables or stay on the couch watching football and drooling.