Anyone know what knot this is?

Yep, some of my best frands showed me that knot, but I forgot the name and called it a Brummel for the longest time.

rgold wrote: I don't know whether the DAV commented on backup knots for these knots, but a backup knot certainly never hurts anything. If not backed up and the end went entirely through the knot you'd still have a single bowline with a very long tail, so it is hard to think of a backup knot as absolutely essential. However, if you use this knot to anchor a fixed line to two anchors, one loop to each anchor, then you must use a backup knot, because one of those loops is a single bowline to one of the anchor points. I'd use something else for this purpose anyway. The rethreaded bowline (let's not call it a double bowline, that's something else) is pretty common in Europe, so it seems at least some climbers are capable of checking it. Personally, I'd use the rethreaded bowline as my regular knot but with half ropes, that's four strands through the tie-in points---gettin' a little crowded.

It´s known as the one-and-a-half-bowline over here (in German of course).
Checking other peoples knots isn´t a feature of Euro climbers, I saw an American do it once but we prefer just to do it properly ourselves:-)
The re-threaded bowline is good in that respect, you have to re-thread back through so you check the knot anyway, it also gets rid of the old top down/bottom up argument since you have to do both.

It's worth noting that while this version of the bowline does not require a backup, it's pretty much the only version of the bowline used in the USA that does not require a backup. Using a standard double bowline (or single bowline if you're particularly misinformed on bowlines) absolutely should include a stopper knot as the knot does not self-tighten, it can loosen easily and there is absolutely zero redundancy within the knot. If a single pass of the rope comes undone, the entire knot will fail with the standard double or single bowline. However, as others have said, the version of the knot discussed in this thread is in essence two single bowlines tied in series.

Jim Titt wrote: Checking other peoples knots isn´t a feature of Euro climbers, I saw an American do it once but we prefer just to do it properly ourselves:-)

Haha, I totally agree, but then I climbed for forty, maybe fifty years before the knot-checking fad swept in. I think there's something to be said for checking whether your partner has any knot at all (as there have been some bad and fatal accidents when climber forget to tie in), but checking to see whether the knot has been correctly tied? Nah, that's a job for the person who tied it.

Most of the people I climb with do not have the second tie in on the first pitch until the leader has led the pitch and has pulled up the ropes, as this allows most of the embedded twists to undo themselves before they are locked into the system by having the second tie in. Of course, the second and leader are then a rope length apart and there is no way the leader is going to be checking the second's knot (for that pitch anyway).

Checking others knots doesn't have to be a physical fondling inspection. Whether you are a climber from Liechtenstein or America, hopefully there is an process when roping up that at least involves a quick visual of the system between belayer & climber. Using more esoteric tie-in methods can make this quick check more suspect -- just throwing that out for consideration.

Although if I was belaying and saw that knot I may go fondle it.

Chris Walden wrote:Checking others knots doesn't have to be a physical fondling inspection. Whether you are a climber from Liechtenstein or America, hopefully there is an process when roping up that at least involves a quick visual of the system between belayer & climber. Using more esoteric tie-in methods can make this quick check more suspect -- just throwing that out for consideration. Although if I was belaying and saw that knot I may go fondle it.

Indeed, I always do a quick visual on my partner and 99% of the time my partner doesent even know it's being done because I only say something if I notice something wrong. However, before they leave the ground I always glance over to ensure the basics are complete--doubled back if applicable, knot tied correctly, harness on right, rope running through both tie-in points. I dont need to square them off and stare right at them to get this done, they merely need to be facing me at some point for some brief period of time. I do the same when I am the climber getting ready to leave the deck. On at least 30 occasions over the last 15 years I've noticed something wrong. In a few of the cases, the mistake could have been fatal.

I do the type of surreptitious visual fast checks mentioned by the previous posters myself and have nothing against them. My response was related to a comment I've heard before, that using a knot different from the figure eight is intrinsically dangerous because the knot can't be reliably checked by the partner.

Speaking of reliability, I've had partners who don't know anything about bowlines, especially the threading scheme I use, check my bowlines and declare them good, the point being that they weren't actually paying attention at all. This reinforces my point that the person who tied that knot had better verify themselves that it is done right.

And 20 kN, 2 discovered tie-in errors per year? You need to get yourself some more attentive partners dude!

rgold wrote:And 20 kN, 2 discovered tie-in errors per year? You need to get yourself some more attentive partners dude!

That's Wednesday at most gyms and sport crags around the USA. Half the people out there dont seem to know the basics. I climb with a ton of different people since I travel a lot and that's just the way of the game. At my home crag, all my partners know what they are doing, I wouldent climb with them otherwise. However, I do occasionally offer belays to noobs with no partner standing around at the crag and I see a lot of errors there. Most of the time it's something minor like a twisted leg loop, but occasionally I see someone thread the GriGri backwards or fail to lock their belay biner. I dont think I've ever seen someone outright tie-in wrong, that is, tie into something other than the tie-in points, with the exception of one dude who insisted in only tying into his belay loop... I've seen newcomers fail to double-back their harness a ton of times. That's really common.

You're certainly not the only person who's realized that tons of people dont know how to tie the bowline yet declare it safe. I use that as a noob test at the gym. I tie the bowline, hold it in clear view and ask if my figure eight is safe. About 50% of the time I get a yes back. I then say that it's actually the bowline, which looks nothing like a figure eight, and I ask why they dident get it right. My favorite response so far was from a partner that said "In fact, it did look rather strange, but I dident want to get caught looking at your junk for too long." Nice.

Ok, you have a much bigger range of climbing partners than I do, so I guess you see a different world.

As for the reliability of checking, some of you may remember a reference posted by bearbreeder during the discussion of the quickdraw assembly failure that tragically killed Tito Traversa. wildfiretoday.com/2010/03/0…. The report details a fatal accident in which four people reviewed and pronounced fit a totally unacceptable set-up, which subsequently failed and killed the user.

Although one of the four people was the victim himself, I still think the best and most thorough check is the one you perform yourself---if you devote the attention required to the task.

rgold wrote:Ok, you have a much bigger range of climbing partners than I do, so I guess you see a different world. As for the reliability of checking, some of you may remember a reference posted by bearbreeder during the discussion of the quickdraw assembly failure that tragically killed Tito Traversa. wildfiretoday.com/2010/03/0…. The report details a fatal accident in which four people reviewed and pronounced fit a totally unacceptable set-up, which subsequently failed and killed the user. Although one of the four people was the victim himself, I still think the best and most thorough check is the one you perform yourself---if you devote the attention required to the task.

Both stories very sad. I frequently use the Tito story as an example for everyone to inspect their own gear. On the other article it's shocking and not. Shocking that industry professionals (4 of them) missed that, but not because we all get into rote routine of lazy/gloss over inspection on trivial tasks we have done hundreds or thousands of times. Just goes to show we always need to be diligent. There have been too many accidents in the last few years highlighting this.

Not being a fan of the simple bowline for a tie in, I tried this rethreaded version in the gym last week for fun. Have to admit to having a death grip on the rope as my partner lowered me for the first time...ha ha.

It worked well. Easy to untie, but, so is my retraced figure eight tie in (with the tail tucked through the knot's middle).

Since I didn't have the distance of rope needed worked out, there is (or can be) a bit of a tail which I don't prefer, having gotten used to tucking the tail of a figure eight.

Anyhoo....I see why folks like it.