The Fine Line Bolt Condition

If something needs to be done about the bolts, what can we do? How strict is the no rebolting ban? What size hangers would work if we can only change the hangers? What is the climbing organization in the area?

I'm going to be heading to Elephant's perch this summer and want to get my revenge on this route, but I see the bolt situation has only deteriorated. What can I do?

I don't think they need replacing.

Every comment for the past 5 years disagrees with you...

Bolts on which pitch? The bolts on pitch 8 shouldn't even be there, since the 5.10 OW section is very protectable. So that pretty much leaves the first pitch, in which I thought the bolts were fine as is. Who knows though, especially after this winter. Nobody will know until the snow recedes and access gets a little better.

Type in "The Fine Line" to the search box at the top of this page, click the link to the route, and read all of the comments, starting from 2013.

I climbed the first pitch of this route maybe 5 years ago and the bolts were old then. The hangers on the bolts on the first pitch are leepers which have been recalled. The anchor bolts on the first pitch are coming out of the wall, and were creepy back when I climbed the route.

When is going to be acceptable to replace the bolts? When someone shatters their ankles after one of them breaks?

There is a bolt ban in the sawtooth wilderness and we Idaho natives don't want to lose access to the perch, especially considering the amount of litter left behind by climbers. There are plenty of other routes that go clean. When fixed anchor s can be justified to the park service, then I'm sure we will see a lot of re bolting. Until then, the situation at front country walls will be a little dicey. It would be best if people went bold or found a better protected line.

Rebolt it then, I certainly don't care. Know that if you are caught by rangers you will be prosecuted.
Otherwise sack up or find another route.

The bolts are decades old ("sack up"- really?).

Does replacing them jeopardize access? That should be the only question. Don't bother asking if they should be replaced.

Pt.

Hey I'm not an anti bolter here. I would love to see some beefy new bolts on this route, but to answer your question about access, I would would guess that yes, breaking the current law about backcountry bolting in a wilderness area would be bad for access.

I've reached out to the ASCA and they are determining the access condition.

Phil thanks for contacting the ASCA. The perch is to good to be sullied by all of it's deteriorating hardware.

Hi everyone,

Does anyone have close-up photos of the first pitch bolts or anchor? That picture above is apparently not from the route (reportedly the pro bolts are 3/8" 5-pieces with Leepers and the anchor bolts may be 5/16" buttonheads? Or maybe even 3/8" buttonheads?). We want to figure out the exact bolts (for instance if they are 5-pieces, what length) to assess the likelihood that we can pull them cleanly and re-use the holes. Dave Bingham managed to contact Jeff Rhoads and Jeff says he doesn't know what they are since he didn't place the bolts to begin with (Rhoads not Rhodes...someone might want to fix the spelling in the route description).

Before anyone gets too excited about replacing bolts on the Perch...just to clarify, it is definitely illegal to do any bolt replacement without some sort of permit, and we don't know yet whether any permits will be issued. Even possession of a climbing bolt in your pack is illegal.

A Forest Service document from the '90s included this: "In September 1996, the Sawtooth National Forest supervisor reviewed Sawtooth policy on the use of bolts and decided no additional fixed anchors would be permitted in the Sawtooth Wilderness. Existing anchors would be maintained and replaced as needed."
fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/pdfpubs/…

However there is no mention of maintenance or replacement in the current regulations (a PDF which I can't copy and paste from): fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DO… (Thanks to Erik Murdock at the Access Fund for those links).

Once we figure out the bolts (and have a good idea whether we can probably re-use the exact holes or will probably have to patch and drill new holes), the ASCA and the Access Fund and local climbers will be very diplomatic in requesting a replacement permit from the Forest Supervisor. I've done this before with various land managers, and the one thing I've learned for sure - be patient!

In any case, if anyone has close-up photos of any of the first pitch bolts, or even high-res photos that just show any of them at all, please post them here or email them to me at greg@safeclimbing.org - thanks!

Greg, I'm sure you know Geir in southern AZ and his technology for removing bolts (I faintly remember him saying he passed it on to you). As far as I understand, he has figured out how to remove virtually any bolt out there. Obviously, re-using the same hole is important in an area with such strict regulation.

Chasing the Dragon could also use an re-bolting. While the bolts aren't horrible yet, the consequences of a single bolt failing would be catastrophic.

I'd be happy to offer my assistance in this effort this summer if a permit gets approved. I'll be spending a fair bit of time in the Sawtooths.

Brandon Gottung wrote:As far as I understand, he has figured out how to remove virtually any bolt out there. Obviously, re-using the same hole is important in an area with such strict regulation.

Yes I know Geir, and Greg German and others who've been pioneering various bolt removal techniques.

However there are many bolts that simply can not be removed yet, particularly in Wilderness when you're limited to hand tools.

Examples: old 5-pieces sometimes snap off in the hole during unscrewing. I've found this happens about 10-15% of the time (perhaps because of initial overtorquing, or from the bolt being rusted into the cone, etc), and it almost always happens where the threads start on the bolt (about halfway down the hole). Then you're faced with a carbon steel bolt down in the hole and there's pretty much nothing you can do with hand tools (even with power tools there's no easy solution).

Other examples: Broken 1/4" or 5/16" buttonheads where part of the bolt is broken off in the hole. Self-drill bolts (aka Drop-ins) - no way to remove the sleeve. Stud bolts where the bolt is seized or the bolt snaps off. All of these are pretty much impossible to remove without core drilling (which is not something that many people are equipped for anywhere, and is not an option in Wilderness where power tools are banned).

Re-using the hole is always great, and it's unfortunate when the hole has to be patched and a new hole drilled. However it is not something that the land managers tend to regulate - they are primarily interested in not adding additional fixed anchors, so whether a bolt ends up moved a few inches is not that important in their eyes. Due to all the ways that an old hole can get jammed with an old bolt, we can't promise to re-use every original hole even in places where almost all the bolts come out easily.

After a quick count I've come up with about 120 bolts spread out over 275 pitches on the Perch. Some of these were placed in the 60's. Many more were installed in the 70's and up until the mid 90's.
I placed 3 bolts on the first pitch of the Fine Line in the late 80's, 88-89?? Prior to this the climb was 5.10 A2 with the only aid being on the first pitch. After several tries spread out over the next few weeks I finally led it. A year or 2 later another bolt appeared protecting the first hard moves right off the deck. You don't need this bolt if you start this pitch in the crack about 3' to the left which I've always done.
I've always rated this pitch 11+ never 11a. 11d in my book. Original ratings don't carry any more weight than any others but don't blame me for the sandbag.
I can't be 100% sure but I think the bolts I put in are taper bolts. A 3/8" x 2 1/2" single piece bolt with a tapered threaded end that fits into an expandable sleeve. The majority of the bolts on the other climbs are the 1/4" split shaft compression bolts.

Awesome, thanks Reid!

That's excellent news as far as the bolt not snapping off when unscrewed, I don't think a 3/8" Taper bolt would ever snap since the steel and lead will never rust into a blob, and those bolts can't be seriously over-torqued on installation (since it just strips the lead sleeve).

Also it tells us that swapping hangers is NOT an option - those Taper bolts are extremely sensitive to exact torque, and even a slight change in hanger width could turn the bolt into near-zero pull-out strength. Actually I wouldn't even attempt to unscrew one and screw it back in with the same hanger on the bolt.

For those who are wondering about Taper bolts, they are the bottom design in the first graphic from this old Duane Raleigh article - and the sleeve/inverse cone at the end is lead, not steel: safeclimbing.org/education/…

I've replaced 3/8" Taper bolts (aka USE Diamond Tapers) in 3 different ways, two of which I've used with hand tools. The super simple way (which doesn't even need a hand drill) is to just unscrew the bolt, brush & blow out the hole, and tap in a short stainless 3/8" stud bolt. Another method is to expand the hole size, which usually works on lead sleeves since while you are drilling, the rock is chipping out steadily and lead comes out as well - while if you try to drill through the lead sleeve with the same size drill bit it just gets stuck.

However I've only done that hand drilling by going up in size to 12mm and using Petzl Long-lifes, which are fairly short, so I didn't need to drill through the entire lead sleeve, only part of it.

I'm going to ask if anyone has managed to pull the sleeves themselves with hand tools, or perhaps drill them out with a different type of drill bit and a ratcheting drill holder. I know that Pinnacles rebolters use 3/8" lag screws to pull the sleeves of 3/8" Star-Dryvins, so that might be a method, but those sleeves are thinner and less of a "blob" at the end of the hole.

So we still don't know what the first bolt is, or the anchor bolts, does anyone have any photos?

Thanks!

There used to be a great photo of the 1st pitch anchor on here, but it seems to have disappeared. To me, they appeared to be 3/8 inch button heads and they look galvanized. The hanger on the right bolt does not sit flush with the rock due to a shallow cone shaped void that is about as big as a quarter in diameter. I took a good hard look at this anchor last year and decided to back it up with the finger crack to the left. I'll keep looking for that photo...

Also, really stoked to see this post!

Hey everyone,

I'm really psyched to see the attention this garnering. For perspective, I should be up in the sawtooths sometime around August or September.

Reid, I don't believe anyone could call that first pitch 11a! It's a sandbagged 11+ at the least!

Jesse Wees wrote:There used to be a great photo of the 1st pitch anchor on here, but it seems to have disappeared. To me, they appeared to be 3/8 inch button heads and they look galvanized. The hanger on the right bolt does not sit flush with the rock due to a shallow cone shaped void that is about as big as a quarter in diameter. I took a good hard look at this anchor last year and decided to back it up with the finger crack to the left. I'll keep looking for that photo... Also, really stoked to see this post!

Thanks Jesse, Dave Bengston also thought they were 3/8" buttonheads, and a large crater/spalling beneath the hanger would tend to support that (that happens with 5/16" buttonheads as well, but one the size of a quarter is more likely with a 3/8" buttonhead).

One of Geir's bolt pullers may be able to pull those straight out, particularly if the hangers don't break (and the hangers are modern, right? Dave didn't think they were Leepers). Stainless hangers will often bend such that the direction of pull becomes more straight-out as more force is applied (while Leepers or plated steel hangers are more likely to just snap).

However, even if the bolt is pulled cleanly, if the spalling/crater is too large then the hole may have to be patched, which would be a bummer - but not as much of a bummer as reusing the hole and having a compromised bolt.

Phil, I'm psyched too - but just to warn you, don't hold your breath on a replacement permit!

If anyone has a good photo looking up at the first pitch please post up! Modern digital photos can be higher resolution than you realize (I once found an anchor in Tuolumne by taking photos of where I thought it might be from a neighboring route, then zooming in and searching on my camera...finally found the distinct shape of a Leeper hanger, and spotted the other bolt as well, nowhere near where I expected!)

As of now, or with my last interaction with the FS in the sawtooths the bolting ban is very much still in affect. This includes replacing any current hardware. When they say ban they mean it. There was talk from them of actually removing hardware added since the ban was enacted. This includes routes on the super slabs. Their current position is to do everything in their ability to follow these current guideline until they change. At this time there is no point in discussing the replacement of these or any other bolts until they rewrite the current MP to allow hardware replacement.

The bolts on the 8th pitch are the original ones from Fred Beckey during the first ascent, they are as much a treasure as anything on that wall. The ones on the first pitch, which i believe is a total of 5 or 6 now are really not that bad and are on par or better than all other bolts on the perch, minus one anchor that was illegally replaced on the mountaineers.

These bolts are all in well placed positions and are safe to fall on. The image above is basically a 2 bolt anchor at what is the crux of the route. You are never far above these bolts. Unfortunately with things the way they are the only option available is to sack up and climb the route. The Perch is not a crag, it is a serious wall and should be treated as such. If you fear these routes are out of your league and cannot be safely led then don't lead it. sorry but not all routes are for everyone.

Southern Idaho Climbing Coalition is the areas LCO and has looked into this but until a new MP is written and signed there is little that can be done. On top of all that I am surprised that people are concerned about the bolts when on that pitch the next one and many others on the perch the pins that you often clip should be the real concern. These were placed by the original FA parties for the most part and have been in place ever since. I have pulled several out by hand they are not at all confidence inspiring. This is not colorado or california, you want to climb here you got to cowboy up and get rowdy.

Maybe one day we'll all be as fantastic and brave as you, Ian.

Until then, I would argue that denigrating the idea that we as a community should pursue upgrading deteriorating bolt is short sighted as climbing areas are more likely to be shut down should an injury/death happen than if climbers as a community attempted to find solutions with land managers.