Redpoint with Prehung Draws

Russ Keane wrote: At places like Rumbling Bald, where bolts are called for, there are plenty.

That's just it: there are not plenty of bolts at Rumbling Bald, by most folks' modern understanding of sport climbing. On average, the sport routes there are pretty sparsely bolted by modern standards. Both routes I mentioned are at Rumbling Bald. Here's more that are well known:

mountainproject.com/v/bear-…

Bear Cub (5.7) will hurt you if you fall clipping a bolt

mountainproject.com/v/gunbo…

Gunboat Diplomacy (5.10) has 11 bolts in 160 feet, and it requires small cams at the start to climb it safely.

mountainproject.com/v/seven…

Next door, 7 Year Itch (5.10+) has 10 bolts in 160 feet.

Russ Keane wrote:So wait a minute.... Climbing 5.12 on gear is less an achievement than 5.14 or 5.15 on bolts?

Yes. I've led 5.12 on gear at most of the well-known non-slab NC climbing areas, and I can't imagine 5.14/5.15.

beensandbagged wrote: What is sad is that after all this time, some 30 plus years since the explosion of sport climbing some folks refuse to recognize that the growth of climbing or an individuals climbing does not come just through big numbers. I think there are a lot of people out there who appreciate the bold tradition of NC climbing.

And some folks refuse to recognize that growth can include big numbers---it's not an either/or situation. There are certainly some folks who appreciate what's going on in NC. Most of them tend to be older than 45, and they romanticize the good old days the way older folks tend to do. I've been climbing in NC for just shy of 20 years, and while I appreciate that I may not freak out on 5.10R, I think the vibrant climbing communities elsewhere flourish because they embrace more of a culture of fun rather than adventure/danger.

I agree, Rumbling Bald is not a sport climbing cliff. In fact, I would argue it has no sport climbs at all. I was merely saying, NC has bolts -- where they are needed. Perhaps I am wrong, (you would know more), but perhaps the lack of sport climbing in NC is due to the nature of the rock being good for gear protection. Are there places where an awesome sport area could be developed, but has been blocked?

Ted Pinson wrote: It's not sport climbing.

.... Whoops... mixed that last denotation... the "not" shouldn't have been there... I hope that came across.. It was like a 180?

Russ Keane wrote:Are there places where an awesome sport area could be developed, but has been blocked?

Rumbling Bald could have tons of harder lines if the skill and motivation to put them up existed here. And I would argue that it could be a great mixed area if the "sport" routes' bolt counts were roughly doubled. Hike over to the left of Hanging Chain and look at the incredible shield of rock on the right end of Left Field. As for the potential of the rock in Hickory Nut Gorge, the hardest routes in the state, The Good (5.13+R trad), The Bad (5.14), and The Ugly (5.14+) are at Ghost Town, just west of what most folks consider Rumbling Bald. (As an aside, Ghost Town also hosts the greatest crack climbing in North Carolina. It's owned by the state, but the area below the base is private. The state really needs to get it reopened. And if they ever get the other side of the gorge open---the vast area of climbing around Chimney Rock---NC will have its own mini Yosemite)

Cedar Rock's edges have a ton of potential. And even Stone Mountain could be a weird as hell sport climbing area if it was bolted safely. There are tons of lines of "blank" wall between established routes at every crag around the state that aren't bolted because of both the lack of talent, the lack of motivation, and the choppers.

Russ Keane wrote:I would argue it has no sport climbs at all.

There are sport routes. You just have to ask where to find them. The Dump, Little Wilson, Middle Hawksbill, Upper Creek Falls, Sauratown, Rocky Face, Crowders, Rumbling Bald, the Hanging Garden of Moore's, The Underworld, and Black Fork all have legit sport routes of varying quality and quantity. Black Fork, though generally lower quality than most of NC, is mostly bolted to modern standards, and it's a great place for intermediate climbers.

Brian Abram wrote:The definition of "traditional" climbing is debatable.

I suppose so if you're entirely clueless, easily confused and / or haven't done much of it.

Brian Abram wrote:Viperscale needs to realize that there are a lot of dumbasses in NC that refuse to grow with the sport. This has left NC as a backwater, full of mentally strong, but physically weak climbers who think that 5.12 makes you a hardman when that is such a pedestrian grade at even just the regional level.

Sure, 5.12 is a pedestrian grade in sport climbing and I've seen no shortage of 5.13 climbers back off or get their asses handed to them on 5.10 trad.

NC climbers always had a reputation for being extremely bold, strong, clever, usually stoned and highly entertaining.

And so on to...

Brian Abram wrote:The dumbest stupidly common quote around here is "I've seen 5.12 sport climbers shit their pants on 5.9 at Stone Mountain". It's this sort of insecure trashing of "strong" climbers by physically weak trad leaders that poisons the whole community. And 5.12 isn't even that strong

This sort of bashing of bold climbers by emotionally weak climbers also poisons the whole community. Again 5.12 isn't that strong until you're run out and have to place gear that isn't always easy to place. You can keep on with this 'strong' theme, but it's a weak and unproductive argument.

Brian Abram wrote:And I would argue that it could be a great mixed area if the "sport" routes' bolt counts were roughly doubled.

Yer killing me....

Brian Abram wrote:There are tons of lines of "blank" wall between established routes at every crag around the state that aren't bolted because of both the lack of talent, the lack of motivation, and the choppers.

Two thumbs up for the choppers...

Brian Abram wrote:In spite of popular myth, there is not a singular, agreed upon "North Carolina Ethic". There have always been arguments, just as there are arguments today.

Arguments with people who want to bolt the shit out of everything in sight and retrobolt if they could get away with it is nothing new. But NC has always had a strong, prevailing trad ethic. Claiming otherwise is either ignorant, stupid or a sad attempt at revisionist history.

Brian Abram wrote: That's just it: there are not plenty of bolts at Rumbling Bald, by most folks' modern understanding of sport climbing. On average, the sport routes there are pretty sparsely bolted by modern standards. Both routes I mentioned are at Rumbling Bald. Here's more that are well known: mountainproject.com/v/bear-… Bear Cub (5.7) will hurt you if you fall clipping a bolt mountainproject.com/v/gunbo… Gunboat Diplomacy (5.10) has 11 bolts in 160 feet, and it requires small cams at the start to climb it safely. mountainproject.com/v/seven… Next door, 7 Year Itch (5.10+) has 10 bolts in 160 feet. Yes. I've led 5.12 on gear at most of the well-known non-slab NC climbing areas, and I can't imagine 5.14/5.15. And some folks refuse to recognize that growth can include big numbers---it's not an either/or situation. There are certainly some folks who appreciate what's going on in NC. Most of them tend to be older than 45, and they romanticize the good old days the way older folks tend to do. I've been climbing in NC for just shy of 20 years, and while I appreciate that I may not freak out on 5.10R, I think the vibrant climbing communities elsewhere flourish because they embrace more of a culture of fun rather than adventure/danger.

I am sure there are a lot of people out there under 45 who appreciate the more multifaceted experience that placing your own gear offers and consider those greater demands to be rewarding and fun.

Russ Keane wrote:I agree, Rumbling Bald is not a sport climbing cliff. In fact, I would argue it has no sport climbs at all. I was merely saying, NC has bolts -- where they are needed. Perhaps I am wrong, (you would know more), but perhaps the lack of sport climbing in NC is due to the nature of the rock being good for gear protection. Are there places where an awesome sport area could be developed, but has been blocked?

Oklahoma is much the same. Absurd and stupid by Price's standards perhaps, possibly some of Goldsmith's "Trumpers" here too. There are some true "sport" routes in the WMWR and at Quartz, but not many.

Most everything would fall under trad, bolted trad, or trad/sport mixed if having a bolt is the qualifier. I personally like the "clean" look that's been maintained. I enjoy the bold run-out style here. It makes you a better climber and keeps you humble when falling is not a good option.

There's 5.14+ rock in the WMWR that could be sport bolted and climbed if you know where to look, but I don't think anyone here can do it. The climbing coalition has a tight reign on bolting and permits are required to drill anyway.

In the future, if we do see the climbs I'm talking about actually go up I would like to think that the old school "trad based" ethic we've somewhat maintained here would still prevent the use of perma-draws, especially since such routes would see little traffic. JB

Totally agree on the Oklahoma ethics... Humbly suggest, I won't live to see perma-draws hanging in the refuge... That's what I love about climbing there. So many routes rated where I should just walk up, and instead end up puckered. Certainly instilled a greater sense of caution when approaching new routes and areas for sure.

I've been neck deep in the "NC ethic" for a long time, and I'm psyched that over the coming years, the old guard will stay home more and more to irrelevantly bitch at the state of things as the new generation allows the activity to evolve.

Brian Abram wrote:...allows the activity to evolve.

I.e. bolt and retrobolt the shit out of the place. Got it.

Healyje wrote: I.e. bolt and retrobolt the shit out of the place. Got it.

exactly

Brian Abram wrote:I've been neck deep in the "NC ethic" for a long time, and I'm psyched that over the coming years, the old guard will stay home more and more to irrelevantly bitch at the state of things as the new generation allows the activity to evolve.

And then someday when your hair is grey, you will look at some punk who thinks he's the poo because he just did a route with zero consequence of failure, and say "I climbed this route when it only had one bolt on it"

And no one will care, and you will realize that what once made climbing come with a true sense of accomplishment no longer exists, and that you were part of the generation that made it possible.

FYI as long as the "old guard" can rappel they can chop your route any time they feel like it. I've never clipped the retro bolt on Dr. Coolhead and someday when I get ready to hang it up for good I'm chopping that baby. JB

;)

Probably, as I personally enjoy the risk in climbing, and for me it is in fact part of why I do it. But I don't push it on others, and I know where most folks are pushing this thing.

Jon W wrote: No, what is sad is that after 30 some years, many still want to dictate what others should do and think. With climbing, it is solely up to the individual to determine what metrics to use to gauge INDIVIDUAL growth, whether by boldness, chasing grades or both. Sport climbing is a type different climbing than trad, just as is ice climbing and mountaineering. Why is that so hard to understand. What ever happened to the freedom of climbing, to get away from all this horseshit anyway.............I'm sure we get all this same type of shit in our everyday lives, don't we.

What's sad is that after all this time you (that would be you and all with your mentality) are dictating how others climb every time you drill, glue, comfortize - in a much more permanent manner. Why is that so hard to understand?

Eric Engberg wrote: What's sad is that after all this time you (that would be you and all with your mentality) are dictating how others climb every time you drill, glue, comfortize - in a much more permanent manner. Why is that so hard to understand?

We aren't going to resolve this conflict here, but I'm curious why you think all the crags should be reserved for trad climbers?

So, this thread has drifted even more. Personally, I'm not a fan of retrobolting, particularly if it conflicts with local ethics. If people want to scare the sh!t out of themselves on runout slab routes, they should be able to do that, and in general, that's what I expect from bolted slab routes. What I DON'T like is when these routes are labeled ";sport,"; because again, this leads people to saunter up with a different set of expectations. Anything that we can do as a community to prevent medvacs, broken ankles, and coffins should be done IMO. So, either we label these sparsely bolted routes ";trad,"; or we retrobolt the shit out of them until they are proper ";sport"; routes. Personally, I prefer the first option, but don't forget: you don't HAVE to clip every bolt, so if you don't like those shiny new retrobolts, just skip them, skip your rusty crap, and stop yelling at kids to get off your lawn.

Brian Abram wrote:Probably, as I personally enjoy the risk in climbing, and for me it is in fact part of why I do it. But I don't push it on others, and I know where most folks are pushing this thing.

We aren't "pushing" climbing risk on others. Climbing comes with risk. If you don't want the risk stay home right? It would be those who wish to retro bolt or over-bolt who would be pushing their ethics on those who established the sport, and the FAs.

It's not "push" it's "push back"

Evolution as you call it is terrible if it degrades the risk factor of the sport to the point that you are more likely to get hurt on a rollercoaster than climbing.

People complain on here all the time about how overcrowded popular areas are. What do you think will happen if the danger is removed by retro bolting?

Everybody and their dog will be climbing, the crag (every crag) will look like the gym.

You can't have it both ways, if the danger is what you like you better start trying to preserve it now.

All that said you can always skip the retro bolts anytime you feel like it. You'll be waiting in line to do it though. JB

;)

John Barritt wrote:We aren't "pushing" climbing risk on others. Climbing comes with risk. If you don't want the risk stay home right? It would be those who wish to retro bolt or over-bolt who would be pushing their ethics on those who established the sport, and the FAs.

John, why do you get to define what climbing is about, or how people should enjoy it, or what the important components of the sport are?

Why is your precise definition of the appropriate amount of risk the only correct one?

NB- I don't condone retrobolting, so would prefer not to get dragged into that quagmire!

Silly kids, Sport climbing begins at 5.12 b or c, so most of what you are all discussing is called chuffing.

Now continue this awesome discussion about how bad-ass you are by scaring yourself and continually referencing you extremely sensitive balls.

Ted Pinson wrote:So, this thread has drifted even more. Personally, I'm not a fan of retrobolting, particularly if it conflicts with local ethics.

Thank you Ted. I think the drift was inevitable.

Also, the "telling kids to get off your lawn" analogy is flawed although it comes up often, It's more like yelling at kids not to dig holes in your lawn. It's your lawn, you paid for it. Also a bad analogy since the lawn isn't really ours or you damn kids either.

Us old guys drilled the first holes, decided it was bad when we felt guilty and decided that to do it as little as possible was best. For a reason.

We just don't want to have to say I told you so........

JB

;)