Redpoint with Prehung Draws

For USA, or for any holdout countries for that matter, this was settled around 1989. Anyone that throws around the term "pinkpoint" these days has likely never climbed harder than perhaps 12b.

Jens K. wrote: For USA, or for any holdout countries for that matter, this was settled around 1989. Anyone that throws around the term "pinkpoint" these days has likely never climbed harder than perhaps 12b.

This resurrected "debate" reminds me of this This thread questioning what makes the Euros better climbers overall than American climbers

Apparently I forgot to add "Insists on differentiating between redpoint and pinkpoint in sport climbing" among the list of counterproductive mindsets.

get over it. it's spurt climbing fer christs sake and the draws have been hanging there for decades.... there is zero doubt that its harder to hang your own draws but nobody cares....

There seems to be a gray area.

Sub 5.12 with pre-hung draws = pinkpoint

But...
Above 5.12 with pre-hung draws = redpoint

??? Maybe we should just call it a lead???

Kyle Tarry wrote: This isn't correct. The bolts/draws are all still the same distance apart, so you climb the same amount above the previous one to clip the next.

Not true depending on the route. I know of routes I can't climb without risking a ground fall because I can't reach the bolt to put a draw on. It requires climbing past the crux and clipping a draw from a very dangerous position if it is not pre-hung.

Given this also depends on your reach. Most people can clip this bolt from a huge jug under the roof. But not everyone has the reach (I used to be able to climb it until the moved the bolt up higher when rebolting the route) now it requires climbing higher than the bolt before I am on a hold I can clip it from. Sure if you want to clip from a completely shit hold go ahead and clip in the middle but the hold is so bad I can't do it. I have not lead it without pre-hung draws since it was rebolted.

What I normally do if noone around is with my group that can lead it is clip up a different way on the route that allows me to reach the bolt. I than can downclimb half the route and do the traverse to the left under the roof and up the normal path. It is a strange route because you can reach the bolt from one spot under the roof but no way to pull the roof from that spot.

I think the big point you are missing is it isn't about how far apart what you are clipping it is about what hold you have to clip from. The higher the bolt is the higher you have to clip before you clip. This means you have to clip from different holds. with the draw pre-hung you get an extra 10 inches of choices from where you want to clip from (the distance from the spot the top biner is hanging on the bolt to the opening of the lower biner). This can make a massive difference between clipping from a jug you can hang on all day and clipping from a shitty hold.

Remember the rope is always hanging from the last biner you clipped not the bolt so the distance from the last biner to bolt VS last biner to next biner is 10 inches of difference in length, gives you almost a foot less distance to travel. For me that is like an entire extra hand of reach.

Jon W wrote: It's called a "send". Is anyone really going say the the 1rst 9a was not done correctly? Because that is what is implied. What is more is that it is implied by folks that have never even done a 7a or maybe even 6a. With sport, it has nothing to do with the protection like it does with hard trad. Most will skip bolts in order to make the send. It takes every bit of strength and energy to link the moves and that is what it is about. The point is, that in sport climbing, it is about linking the moves from beginning to end with out fall. Why is this so fucking hard to understand?

Why not just top rope than if it is purely about climbing without falling? Why worry about clipping shit if you want pure climbing. It isn't about pure climbing. Top roping is about pure climbing. Sport is a halfway point before true terror of trad and the passive nature of top rope.

s.price wrote: I thought people quit caring in the 90's.

I think that's what's meant by "settled".

Jason Todd wrote:The only people who care are 5.8 trad leaders or old crusties who no longer climb.

+1

Guys, this thread has taught us all SO much new information. I can't believe this topic has not been covered on mountainreject before!

Pnelson wrote:Guys, this thread has taught us all SO much new information. I can't believe this topic has not been covered on mountainreject before!

+1

People who sport climb say pink v red doesn't matter.
What people who don't sport climb say doesn't matter.

Next thing you know, we'll have to start explaining to them 'how the rope gets up there'.

Jon W wrote:The real question is, why does one group need to judge and subsequently debase another group? Really, who's place is it to judge someone else....especially with regards to something as esoteric as climbing. Do they feel inadequate?

You're describing something that has been a part of climbing for over 100 years.

"Sport is a halfway point before true terror of trad and the passive nature of top rope."

Halfway? Not really. It's a far cry from toproping. It's like, 80% on the spectrum towards trad.

Russ Keane wrote:"Sport is a halfway point before true terror of trad and the passive nature of top rope." Halfway? Not really. It's a far cry from toproping. It's like, 80% on the spectrum towards trad.

Depends on where you are climbing sport. In North Carolina you have alot of areas where you risk ground falls at every other clip. Go to the west coast and you have a bolt every 5ft, so you may as well just top rope it.

Mark E Dixon wrote: +1 People who sport climb say pink v red doesn't matter. What people who don't sport climb say doesn't matter. Next thing you know, we'll have to start explaining to them 'how the rope gets up there'.

Everyone knows how it gets up there. The crag mountain goat takes it up there for you.

What do you call a climbing partner that always lets you go first and then asks to have the draws left up?

"I want to redpoint this route today. Can you hang the draws for me first?" LOL.

ViperScale wrote:In North Carolina you have alot of areas where you risk ground falls at every other clip. Go to the west coast and you have a bolt every 5ft, so you may as well just top rope it.

This has been discussed to death in other threads - ones that you've been involved with. Those routes you refer to in NC are not sport routes. The presence of bolts does not make it a sport route.

I have been climbing for more than 40 years and in that time have seen standards rise as the ethics fall. There is a correlation. If you give a high jumper a mini-trampoline, you can certainly raise the bar. To claim that today's climbers are better than the Henry Barbers, Jim Bridwells or John Bachars of the day because we're pushing 5.15 is absurd.
To deny that climbing is a competitive sport is again absurd. To compete, we need rules! Therefore to say that rules and definitions don't matter is best left to the anarchists out there who want to think their 'redpoint' of a 13a with pre-placed pro is just as much an achievement as redpoint with a load of draws on the harness.
Ambiguity is just a fact of life in our "everybody's a winner" modern culture where we can't hurt anyone's self-esteem. That means if you want credibility, then say how you did it.

Marc801 wrote: This has been discussed to death in other threads - ones that you've been involved with. Those routes you refer to in NC are not sport routes. The presence of bolts does not make it a sport route.

So there is no sport routes in NC because they are 10-15ft apart compared to 5ft apart on the west coast? I am not talking about the suicide routes with 50ft run outs on a 120ft pitch. I am talking about the normal routes here.

To me sport routes don't exist on the west coast they are just strange short back to back top rope pitches.