4 minute mile

Bill Czajkowski wrote:I'm pretty sure that I'll never climb 5.14 but a four minute mile doesn't seem that daunting. Probably because I really have no desire to run a four minute mile but progressing in climbing grades is something personal to me.

Huh, what's your fastest mile?

Another way to look at it is the range of people who have climbed 5.14 and the range of people who have run sub 4 min miles.
From quick Interneting (so the details may not be perfect):
5.14 has been climbed by an 11-year girl (Ashima) and by a 61 old year man.
The 4-min mile has never been run by any female, and by only one person over 40 (who was 40 or 41). Youngest guy was 17.

Having an 11 year old (boy or girl) or a 61 year old (man or woman) run a 4 min mile will almost certainly never happen.

While climbing and running are apples and oranges, 5.14 seems much more obtainable for more people--no comparison really.

I think the difference would be that it is alot easier to go outside to a 5.14 route because they aren't on every single corner of the road. However, finding a location you could run a 4 min mile is alot easier. So finding a spot to run a 4 min mile is extremely easy compared to finding a spot you can climb a 5.14.

I do know people who can climb 5.14 and I also used to have some friends who could run a 4 min mile. It is very hard to hide the fact you can climb a 5.14 when there is only 1 at the crag. However there is millions of miles of road so hiding the fact you can run a 4 min mile is extremely easy if you want to.

Heck anyone that wants to can put a tread mill in their house and run a 4 min mile extremely easy without you ever knowing. How many people can afford to put a 50ft 5.14 climbing route in their living room?

Look, anyone who wants to climb 14- can do so if they live like a monk and train like a maniac (unless they are gifted). To go sub 4 in a mile you have to be genetically gifted. I ran competitively in the army and was somewhat competitive in triathlon and cycling. I have run into exactly one person who broke 4 minutes.

I was poor elite amateur in triathlon, which meant that on occasion I'd get to race the pros. Granted, triathletes aren't the best runners, but they train hard. Again, I knew one guy who could break 4 minutes. I know many climbers who send 14- sport routes.

ViperScale wrote:I think the difference would be that it is alot easier to go outside to a 5.14 route because they aren't on every single corner of the road. However, finding a location you could run a 4 min mile is alot easier. So finding a spot to run a 4 min mile is extremely easy compared to finding a spot you can climb a 5.14. I do know people who can climb 5.14 and I also used to have some friends who could run a 4 min mile. It is very hard to hide the fact you can climb a 5.14 when there is only 1 at the crag. However there is millions of miles of road so hiding the fact you can run a 4 min mile is extremely easy if you want to. Heck anyone that wants to can put a tread mill in their house and run a 4 min mile extremely easy without you ever knowing. How many people can afford to put a 50ft 5.14 climbing route in their living room?

Running sub 4 on a treadmill is equivalent to climbing 5.14 in a gym - its not (as hard as) the real deal. If you want credit for a 4 minute mile do it on the track. If you want credit for a 5.14 do one that was put up in the 80's.

But again "5.14" is not objective. A 4 minute mile is the same for everyone - old/young, male/female, tall/short.... A 5.14 is not the same for everyone.

Eric Engberg wrote: Running sub 4 on a treadmill is equivalent to climbing 5.14 in a gym - its not (as hard as) the real deal. If you want credit for a 4 minute mile do it on the track. If you want credit for a 5.14 do one that was put up in the 80's. But again "5.14" is not objective. A 4 minute mile is the same for everyone - old/young, male/female, tall/short.... A 5.14 is not the same for everyone.

Yes but you are missing the point I could train until I can run a 2 min mile on a treadmill than go run one outdoors first try. I can't train to climb a 5.14 in my house than go out to the wall and on sight it.

A few people have alluded to sample size. This is important because the extreme limits of performance are by definition outliers. And the larger the sample size, the more extreme the outliers will be.

Since (I assume) many more people run than climb, it's to be expected that world-class runners will be farther away from the average than world class climbers.

Interesting case study that raises this issue: callingbullshit.org/case_st…

G1nj3r wrote:Having come close to both those goals, I would say a 4:59 is comparable to a 5.10+, a reasonable amount of training is required but most humans could do it.

Absolutely not. Maybe you're a better runner than you realize. Let's put it this way. I ran 6 minute miles comfortably, and that consistently put me in the top 10% of what races I did, easily. I did a 5K that about 400 people completed in where I ran a little under 18 and I finished 14th and I wasn't pushing that hard. The percentage of people climbing .10+ is way higher than 10%. The numbers just don't translate that easily. As someone mentioned upthread, look at how many people have run sub 4 and compare that to people who have climbed .14a. Again, I still believe there's a pretty big distinction between a garden variety .14a and a V14, which is what some have suggested is a better metric.

Kyle Tarry wrote: No, you couldn't.

You don't think? It's only a 7.5-second 100m, 16 times in a row.

It would be hilarious to watch him try.

Apples to oranges, different sports, yada yada. All true, but it's still a fun comparison.

A sub-4:00 mile is much harder than 5.14a. I know several collegiate and former professional runners, and none of them have broken 4 minutes (a few were sub 4:10). I know several climbers who've climbed 14a.

Ballpark estimates based on my several years of running and climbing:

5.15a ~ sub-4:00
5.14a ~ sub-4:30
5.13a ~ sub-5:00
5.12a ~ sub-5:45
5.11a ~ sub-6:30
5.10a ~ sub-7:30

(FWIW, I know from my involvement in both sports that I'm a much better runner than I am a climber. I've redpointed a single 5.12a and run several miles in the low 5:20s at elevation.)

Baumer wrote:Apples to oranges, different sports, yada yada. All true, but it's still a fun comparison. A sub-4:00 mile is much harder than 5.14a. I know several collegiate and former professional runners, and none of them have broken 4 minutes (a few were sub 4:10). I know several climbers who've climbed 14a. Ballpark estimates based on my several years of running and climbing: 5.15a ~ sub-4:00 5.14a ~ sub-4:30 5.13a ~ sub-5:00 5.12a ~ sub-5:45 5.11a ~ sub-6:30 5.10a ~ sub-7:30 (FWIW, I know from my involvement in both sports that I'm a much better runner than I am a climber. I've redpointed a single 5.12a and run several miles in the low 5:20s at elevation.)

ooo i like your chart! 12a here I come :)

ViperScale wrote: Yes but you are missing the point I could train until I can run a 2 min mile on a treadmill than go run one outdoors first try. I can't train to climb a 5.14 in my house than go out to the wall and on sight it.

Not sure where you've been living for the past decade, but gymrats have been crushing on real rock even OMG! in Yosemite that everybody keeps telling has unique style needs years of getting used to.

You guys can stop arguing. I called Tom's 80 year old parents house. His mom answered and I told her I was one of Tom's friends from MP and explained to her that 5.14 to climbing is just like someone running a 4 minute mile. Really hard and really rare.

She said "Oh, I get it" and would tell his dad.

PS Tom, she said you should come visit more. JB

;)

Tim Lutz wrote: look at who can run that time: 90% young black athletes

or a bunch of whiteys. nytimes.com/2017/02/11/spor…

T Roper wrote: or a bunch of whiteys. nytimes.com/2017/02/11/spor…

I missed that completely Roper....do you think Tim was implying that black people can run fast but they can't do 5.14?
JB

doligo wrote: Not sure where you've been living for the past decade, but gymrats have been crushing on real rock even OMG! in Yosemite that everybody keeps telling has unique style needs years of getting used to.

A gym is not my house... Maybe where you live everyone has a 50ft + wall to train at in their basement but not where I live.

Baumer wrote:Apples to oranges, different sports, yada yada. All true, but it's still a fun comparison. A sub-4:00 mile is much harder than 5.14a. I know several collegiate and former professional runners, and none of them have broken 4 minutes (a few were sub 4:10). I know several climbers who've climbed 14a. Ballpark estimates based on my several years of running and climbing: 5.15a ~ sub-4:00 5.14a ~ sub-4:30 5.13a ~ sub-5:00 5.12a ~ sub-5:45 5.11a ~ sub-6:30 5.10a ~ sub-7:30 (FWIW, I know from my involvement in both sports that I'm a much better runner than I am a climber. I've redpointed a single 5.12a and run several miles in the low 5:20s at elevation.)

btw I have climbed 5.12a but I have trouble running a 10min mile.

Tim Lutz wrote: your chart is on the right track, but 12a is wwaaaayyyy easier than a 5min mile for me in high school I ran a 5:38 after years of constant training. no weed, booze, bad food at 44, i did 13c after years of daily weed, beer and better food again, it really is all about genetics the 13c I did was long and pumpy. I top out at V6, so a short, boudlery 12b can stop me a four minute mile IS genetics. look at who can run that time: 90% young black athletes

I think it's the performance enhancing weed. JB
;)

Viperscale, a ten minute mile is barely above quick walking pace. It is in no way comparable to climbing 5.12a.

You also don't need an actual cliff in your house to train. Check out the woody thread, people doing pretty incredible things with regular height ceilings