Pulled a Piton

Scott McMahon wrote: 3) Geologic time includes now 4) Science is awesome

We call it erosion in real-time!
I was brought up climbing up some particularly active sea cliffs and it was routine to see your first ascents lying as heap of boulders in the sea a year or two later.
More recently I´ve been developing cliffs in Italy and remember somebody whining about a loose block falling off, didn´t take kindly to being told there had been over 700 recorded earthquakes since it was first put up so what did they expect.

This one came out by hand, easily. And it was on a route where people fell on it with some regularity. Luckily there was gear right nearby.

Here's one of the pins I replaced (with a bugaboo rather than another knifeblade). Note that this pin and the next one above it both looked good from the outside and felt fine clipping it, but it funked out with just a breath of a funk. But again, I have experienced far more bad bolts as a percentage that looked and clipped decent than I have bad pins over the years.

My general experience around here has been that short pins of any kind don't last on average, heavier bugaboos are prefered to knifeblades, medium and long Lost Arrows and soft euro pins perform really well over time, and that angles of any size don't really stay seated for over the long haul due to the low surface area in contact with the rock. YMMV.

Marc801 wrote: So you're basing your future safety on a single, anecdotal data point? Seems wise to me.

Reading comprehension?

Rick Blair wrote:About 5 years ago a partner of mine who weighed a little over 200 took a whip into a pendulum on a rusty ring pin where the ring was about and inch out from the rock. The thing did'nt budge. This was on the Matron in the Flatirons. If I see a pin that looks and feels solid, I will trust the hell out of it.

Hey Rick, word to the wise: You cannot tell how well placed a pin is until you beat on it with a hammer.

There is no look.

There is no feel.

There is only trying to remove it with a hammer, and then you know.

See the above pics of pins ready to snap or did snap off from hidden rust when removed.

Many of these things are literally 30-40-50 years old.

Fixed pins are never, ever to be trusted with life and limb at risk, unless you have no regard for either, or have no other choice and are wiling to role the dice on your fate.

Angles are the worst because of the spring nature of their design. The metal flexes when the pin comes tight, the freeze thaw cycle then works to flex them back and forth and out.

LAs and KB and such force the crack apart, and both can be forced to bend by a curving crack and can hard to remove...but easily removed by falling on them etc.

Frankly, all fixed pins are a poor choice for permanent protection. Proper bolts should be placed by the FA party as is the most common case today.

@OP thanks for being a good sport about the ball-bustin' (funny vid above btw).

Fixed pins: Now you know. Not to be trusted.

Tylerpratt wrote:Yup, at the gunks you clip pitons all the time. My golden rule is "always back them up"

Good advice. I confess I didn't follow it with this anchor at Index though.

Emil Briggs wrote: Good advice. I confess I didn't follow it with this anchor at Index though.

Back it up. Those things will likely be used as is, until there is an accident. Used alone, an accident is inevitable.

Rust never sleeps.

K Weber wrote:""""""""""""""Yer Gonna Die"""""""""""""

Nah... I think he's safe:
mountainproject.com/u/paul-…;&page=1

King Tut wrote: Hey Rick, word to the wise: You cannot tell how well placed a pin is until you beat on it with a hammer. There is no look. There is no feel. There is only trying to remove it with a hammer, and then you know.

True more often than not - same as bolts with regard to you cannot tell.

King Tut wrote:Fixed pins are never, ever to be trusted with life and limb at risk, unless you have no regard for either, or have no other choice and are wiling to role the dice on your fate. ... Frankly, all fixed pins are a poor choice for permanent protection.

Here I would entirely disagree. The efficacy of fixed pins varies greatly by locale. In some locales (like ours) they way, way out-performed the vast majority of the bolts placed decades later. Also, ALL fixed pro - pins and bolts - needs to be surveyed and maintained over time. Neither typically are at most crags which is unfortunate.

Healyje wrote: True more often than not - same as bolts with regard to you cannot tell. Here I would entirely disagree. The efficacy of fixed pins varies greatly by locale. In some locales (like ours) they way, way out-performed the vast majority of the bolts placed decades later. Also, ALL fixed pro - pins and bolts - needs to be surveyed and maintained over time. Neither typically are at most crags which is unfortunate.

Yea, this is always going to be an inexact science because virtually **none** of these are tested in situ and you mostly get anecdotal evidence when the bolts are pulled and look bad (but not tested to breaking strength) and the same with pins. Of course, as you are well aware it is also a case of the integrity of the initial placement which can vary enormously. Some fixed pins are relics of the past where they were well and truly fixed and couldn't be removed...comparatively a pin only placed for fixed pro is not the same thing at all. It may be newer, but the pin would be easily cleaned.

A modern all SS 3/8" bolt is going to be my choice when I fix protection in hard rock. I would never, ever use a pin.