Using a progress capture device for simul climbing protection

Don Ferris wrote: Vdiff, under the equalizing gear section on your site it says to never use a sliding x to equalize gear at a belay, only in lead. Could you explain why?

Imagine it's a hanging belay. If one piece fails, the belayer will fall a short distance and shock-load the other anchor piece(s), which is extremely dangerous.

On lead, however, if the leader falls and one piece of the sliding-X fails, the force on the remaining piece(s) is not as great as in the above situation, This is because much of the force is taken out by rope stretch, the belayer's device and other stuff.

Hope this helps,

VDiff wrote: Imagine it's a hanging belay. If one piece fails, the belayer will fall a short distance and shock-load the other anchor piece(s), which is extremely dangerous.

such a short fall is no big deal if you're tied in to the anchor with the rope. Nice try, thanks for playing.

Introducing that complexity seems to destroy the benefit of simul which is fast and efficient. If there's a tough bit stop and belay - using a trax seems more complicated than climbing needs to be, and if you're fast at changeovers not losing time and you probably needed gear back anyway

Medic741 wrote:Introducing that complexity seems to destroy the benefit of simul which is fast and efficient. If there's a tough bit stop and belay - using a trax seems more complicated than climbing needs to be, and if you're fast at changeovers not losing time and you probably needed gear back anyway

rockfall

;)

eli poss wrote: such a short fall is no big deal if you're tied in to the anchor with the rope. Nice try, thanks for playing.

Depends how unlucky you are.

120cm sling, tied in with 30cm rope.

piece rips, you fall (no limiter knots), say 60cm.

FF=60/30 = 2

As the knot will tighten, you had some weight on your legs, you aren't a steel test weight, and the fall is very short (i.e. low energy), I guess it won't be a "real" FF2. However still not nice.

And, one piece just failed, which probably indicates the other piece is not the world's best: drilled by the same person on the same day, same glue, same 45 year old rust, or equally poor rock or polished cam placement, equally inexperienced person placing said cam......

All bets are off I would say.

David Coley wrote: Depends how unlucky you are. 120cm sling, tied in with 30cm rope. piece rips, you fall (no limiter knots), say 60cm. FF=60/30 = 2 As the knot will tighten, you had some weight on your legs, you aren't a steel test weight, and the fall is very short (i.e. low energy), I guess it won't be a "real" FF2. However still not nice. And, one piece just failed, which probably indicates the other piece is not the world's best: drilled by the same person on the same day, same glue, same 45 year old rust, or equally poor rock or polished cam placement, equally inexperienced person placing said cam...... All bets are off I would say.

Agreed

Medic741 wrote:Introducing that complexity seems to destroy the benefit of simul which is fast and efficient. If there's a tough bit stop and belay - using a trax seems more complicated than climbing needs to be, and if you're fast at changeovers not losing time and you probably needed gear back anyway

Disagree completely. Microtrax (MT) has proven to be a HUGE time saver on long alpine routes of moderate or easy difficulty (which for me, means 5.5ish or WI3 and lower). I typically carry two. That is enough to climb about 550'-600' without needing a changeover.

• Leader sets off from the ground being belayed by a Grigri. Leader protects the pitch normally at his comfort level.
• At around the 180' mark, leader starts looking for a bomber placement with MT #1. The rope will come tight on follower momentarily.
• Follower starts climbing with the Grigri still attached and loaded. This way, he can put the leader back on belay at any moment if necessary. As a secondary benefit, the follower can pull slack/feed rope while on the go to keep a snug rope between the climbers. This of course leaves a loop of rope below the follower, which should generally be avoided.
• At around the 400' mark, leader places MT #2. This should be done before follower removes the lower MT #1. This way, the leader is always protected from a follower's fall.
• At around the 600' mark the leader builds a belay and brings up the follower. This can be a proper trad anchor, or if the terrain is still within the team's comfort level, this can be super simple: a single piece with a hip belay, or a boot-axe belay.
• The team has now covered 600' of climbing with only a MAXIMUM of 1-2 minutes of fiddling with gear that would otherwise not be performed (if pitched out).
• 600' (i.e. 3 rope lengths) is about the maximum you would want to go in a single shot. Assuming a standard alpine rack of 6-7 cams and a set of stoppers, that gives you about 4 placements per ropelength before you're out of gear. You can get a couple more placements with terrain protection (slung trees/icicles/chickenheads/fixed pro), which is fairly common on the low angle, easy terrain we're discussing here.

Using the above system, climbers can cover massive amounts of alpine terrain very quickly with an almost imperceptible time penalty, yet still be relatively well protected from a fall. Of course, all the cautions posted upthread by Bearbreeder and others need to be heeded. But it's a brilliant system for experienced climbers who understand its intricacies and are equipped to self rescue if something goes wrong.

My climbing partners and I have put together a comprehensive article detailing the system we use while simul-climbing. We had never seen this information all laid out in one place.

Check out this link for a summary of many of the techniques and tips presented in this discussion. We are not advocating that everyone start simul-climbing as a way to move faster. We simply want to show experienced climbers who are willing to weigh the risks what we have come to see as the best simul-climbing system.

Choss Boys - Theory of simul-climbing

Nick AW Brown wrote:My climbing partners and I have put together a comprehensive article detailing the system we use while simul-climbing. We had never seen this information all laid out in one place. Check out this link for a summary of many of the techniques and tips presented in this discussion. We are not advocating that everyone start simul-climbing as a way to move faster. We simply want to show experienced climbers who are willing to weigh the risks what we have come to see as the best simul-climbing system. Choss Boys - Theory of simul-climbing

Thanks for writing & posting -- very useful.

Great write-up Nick AW Brown, thanks for sharing. Couple questions: I notice a few different lockers used on your PCDs in the article. What's your favorite for this? I can see that a D wouldn't be good. HMS vs oval vs whatever's lightest?

Any thoughts about if it's better for the leader or follower to carry the extra rope (say, Kiwi style) as it pertains to self rescue should something go wrong (off route, jammed device, leader injured in fall, etc)?

Another advantage: If simul-ing sans PCD (old school simul), and I get to extremely easy terrain, say 4th class, but my partner is following on 5.7 below me, I usually try to protect at the same interval (a few body lengths) as if I was on the 5.7 to protect in case of a follower fall. But with a PCD it seems to be OK to run out through the 4th class terrain like I would if belated. Applied to a long route with lots of very easy sections, this would save a ton of gear and extend the pitches considerably. Thoughts?

Z Winters wrote:Great write-up Nick AW Brown, thanks for sharing. Couple questions: I notice a few different lockers used on your PCDs in the article. What's your favorite for this? I can see that a D wouldn't be good. HMS vs oval vs whatever's lightest? Any thoughts about if it's better for the leader or follower to carry the extra rope (say, Kiwi style) as it pertains to self rescue should something go wrong (off route, jammed device, leader injured in fall, etc)? Another advantage: If simul-ing sans PCD (old school simul), and I get to extremely easy terrain, say 4th class, but my partner is following on 5.7 below me, I usually try to protect at the same interval (a few body lengths) as if I was on the 5.7 to protect in case of a follower fall. But with a PCD it seems to be OK to run out through the 4th class terrain like I would if belated. Applied to a long route with lots of very easy sections, this would save a ton of gear and extend the pitches considerably. Thoughts?

Thanks for reading the article, and coming up with a couple of excellent questions.

Lockers: I recommend the lightest weight locking oval carabiner you can find. We have an auto-locker on one of our devices, but only because we are poor, and someone offered to sell it to us for $5. We go with ovals on PCD's simply because they are the 'biners recommended by the manufacturers. That being said, we have used HMS carabiners as well since we don't have four oval lockers. We've experienced a second fall on one of these biners, and it was a-ok. For micro-ascenders, just make sure the 'biner has a uniform circular cross-section.

Rescue: Rescue will always be more difficult when simul-climbing, and especially so when using PCD's. This is very important to keep in mind when deciding whether or not to simul-climb. I might have to crowd-source for an answer to which climber is better off taking the coil in rescue situations. As far as I can imagine, whoever ends up being the rescuer would be best off having the coil. I'll ask my climbing partner Dave to comment with his thoughts on this. He tends to be the best Choss Boy for imagining potential rescues.

Totally agree with your additional advantage. It's something we do all the time. Often, when we climb simul-pitches of 700-800ft, its on 5.7 or easier terrain and usually only 2-3 pieces of pro get placed per-pitch. I remember when Daniel lead us up 'Birdland' in Red Rocks, he started the climb with a single rack, and maybe doubles in hand size pieces. He led all 7 pitches and still had 1/2 the rack at the top. Again, I don't recommend this for anyone, but he felt comfortable enough placing that little pro, and Dave and I were protected on all but the easiest of terrain by a PCD.