Helmet or no Helmet

losbill wrote: Nathan gets the coveted Shakespeare Award with special Macbeth Category mention thus far for this thread. All praise literature majors!

Does this award come with a prize--like a fancy new helmet?

donald perry wrote: The second climb I mentioned above has a longer fall and the pro is off to the right, your coming in on an angle, then your going to potentially spin out to the right and ram your head into a sharp corner of a block and spit your head open like a watermelon.

Do you have any pictures? I have no idea what you're describing. However, this sounds very dangerous because of the protection, which might be able to be set up in a safer way.

When you start describing your head being split open like a watermelon, you don't need to ask the internet about helmets, you just put one on and then reconsider your risk analysis.

Cyclist used to race with little caps. Skiers used knit caps. Hockey players went without helmets. Motorcyclist enjoyed the wind through their hair. And all of these folks came out just fine. Except for those that didn't. And now, all these folks us helmets.

Helmets have saved me and folks I know many times. I have cycling, skiing, kayaking and climbing helmets, and I wear them. I never plan on getting hurt, but I would like a bit of protection just in case something goes wrong.

Definitely spring for a helmet that incorporates a force-absorbing material instead of just being a hard hat with a webbing harness. It's a *good* thing that a helmet has to be retired after taking a significant hit. Also, treat helmets a bit like hiking boots--try them all on to make sure you get one that is as comfortable as possible. Sometimes especially the chin strap can match poorly with a person's head and neck geometry, resulting in some nasty rubbing over a long period of use.

Helmet every time, every climb. Why take the risk? You don't know when a rock will fall or a hold will break or your buddies phone comes out of his pocket or you whip and flip or you step up into a sharp rock..etc. It doesn't hurt to wear one and is very simple. You put it on your head and buckle. Just read any accidents journal from AAC, and you'll be convinced. You normally don't even have to get very far into it, maybe a few pages before you'll get to a no helmet story. If the person did survive the no helmet accident, normally they spent a few days in the hospital. Below, my 2 min search brought up this one, front page.

publications.americanalpine…

publications.americanalpine…

And another one....
publications.americanalpine…

I mean if you have an extra 20K to spend at the hospital then go for it, but I don't.

And this one, my condolences to everyone involved, RIP.

publications.americanalpine…

Owen Witesman wrote: Are we still talking about climbing? LOL. This seems awfully melodramatic. If strapping on a modern brain bucket that weighs next to nothing sucks all the fun out of climbing, maybe you don't actually enjoy it very much. Do you only do sport climbs where you can belay from the car and don't have to pull very hard, because approaches and exertion can definitely be uncomfortable?

You are one of the types that will never understand. I get the same thing everytime I got to the doctor. Why don't you want this thing plugged into your side 24/7 to monitor your blood sugar etc as a diabetic... because I would rather be dead than have something attached to me 24/7. I can deal with taking shots a few times a day.

Given helmets aren't that extreme but the risk is so low I would rather just not bother. If I die from rock fall or happen to fall and hit my head (highly unlikely) than so be it I am perfectly fine with the risk.

Heck I ride a motorcycle and I have more friends who have wrecked motorcycles than I have who ride and have not wrecked. Does that mean I should stop ridding my motorcycle because they are probably alot more dangerous than rock climbing without a helmet.

Just because the risk level doesn't match yours doesn't mean it is bad to take the risk. It is a personal decision and it is everyone to make on their own.

Are you in support of it being against the law to free solo or not wear a helmet or something?

People who free solo fifth class terrain should be ineligible for any medical coverage they can't pay for themselves out of pocket. Neither the state, hospitals, or other insured individuals should have to contribute to the costs of their intentional negligence. The problem is, medical ethics demand treatment regardless of culpability, so the larger society ends up stuck with the bill in the end.

Helmets seem like a borderline case because the degree of their benefits are highly situationally dependent, but it's inescapable that we live in a highly connected society and everyone's decisions affect everyone else. All risk taking has costs, which can be calculated by factoring he cost by the probability of those costs actually being realized, and those costs are never limited to the individual. Individual humans are terrible at risk assessment, so yeah, it makes perfect sense for society to mandate the use of safety equipment for some activities. Motorcycle helmet laws are an obvious social good, if not Pareto improving. I wouldn't really want to see a climbing helmet law, although given gym liability and the fact that so much climbing happens on public lands, I wouldn't get too comfortable thinking that couldn't be our future. The litigation surrounding liability between partners and nearby parties, for instance, could easily change.

Motorcycles remaining legal in the long term isn't particularly certain either--if the safety differential between cars with self-driving tech and motorcycles becomes too pronounced, you could easily see "dumb" motorcycles (and even cars) be forced off the roads. Acceptable risk has a lot to do with how safe an activity can be made without being fundamentally changed.

Every climb/ski outdoors, no matter how small, is training for the big trad routes and big ski trips. I train like I push my limits, so I always wear a helmet and at least a small pack.

Just my method.

I see that owen is a bundel of fun.......
NOT......

Nat D wrote:Every climb/ski outdoors, no matter how small, is training for the big trad routes and big ski trips.

That's like, in your opinion. Plenty of us do things for their own sake.

I wonder, if the drive to the crag is the most dangerous part of a day of climbing, why don't we helmet up for that?

Wearing a helmet doesn't make anything safe. It can make climbing safer by addressing one set of risk exposures - impacts to the dome. No protection for the face and not much (or any) for the c-spine.

Sometimes I wear a helmet.

Bouldering exposes a climber to head injury, too.

It's a little concerning when climbers explain that their helmets have saved them many times - what does a day at the crag entail for these folks?

Old helmets are really beefy with webbed suspension, foam innards and a tough shell (I saw one at the AAC museum, once). The industry and consumer have moved away from these features to ever lighter, thinner helmets with more and more breathing holes. One of the biggest selling points for the helmet I just bought is it's light weight (that's why I bought it. Well, that and it's very attractive, too). The second big selling point is it's great ventilation, made possible by many holes in the helmet. Why aren't climbers rejecting helmets that offer less protection, if safety is paramount?

Helmets are big business.

ViperScale wrote: You are one of the types that will never understand. I get the same thing everytime I got to the doctor. Why don't you want this thing plugged into your side 24/7 to monitor your blood sugar etc as a diabetic... because I would rather be dead than have something attached to me 24/7. I can deal with taking shots a few times a day. Given helmets aren't that extreme but the risk is so low I would rather just not bother. If I die from rock fall or happen to fall and hit my head (highly unlikely) than so be it I am perfectly fine with the risk. Heck I ride a motorcycle and I have more friends who have wrecked motorcycles than I have who ride and have not wrecked. Does that mean I should stop ridding my motorcycle because they are probably alot more dangerous than rock climbing without a helmet. Just because the risk level doesn't match yours doesn't mean it is bad to take the risk. It is a personal decision and it is everyone to make on their own. Are you in support of it being against the law to free solo or not wear a helmet or something?

I respect your right to choose, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're the only one that suffers from your death. You may be fine with it, but what about when you're belaying? I doubt your partner wants to get dropped just because you didn't want to wear a brain bucket. Also, it's your family who has to deal with the pain of your death, not you.

Personally, I choose to wear my helmet any time I go climbing, except for bouldering. I don't wear it bouldering because I almost never boulder outside and the gym has padded floors. My helmet has saved my head from an huge impact after I landed on my feet on a ledge and fell backwards onto my back. The impact could have caused anything ranging from a lot of pain to increased ICP, and quite frankly I'm glad I didn't find out the hard way.

Matt Stroebel wrote: Do you have any pictures? I have no idea what you're describing. However, this sounds very dangerous because of the protection, which might be able to be set up in a safer way. When you start describing your head being split open like a watermelon, you don't need to ask the internet about helmets, you just put one on and then reconsider your risk analysis.

Now that I think about it Matt, it would be possible to have the rope more to the left, however it would create more rope drag. You have to run it out on 5.11- from there over the roof. We are using those new carabiners that have a pulley wheel in them, and they add more force on the belay as well as stretch out more rope, but they do a great job eliminating rope drag from under the roof.

When I was young I got arrested for stealing gas from a farmer near where I lived. My father asked me if I was stupid. I thought it was a rhetorical question but he asked me again. I said no. He said "then don't do anything stupid". So I wear a helmet because if I get biffed by a rock people will say " why didn't you wear a helmet ?" And I'd have to say I know that was stupid. Which brings me back to my fathers advice that I not do anything stupid.

I don't see how that makes you more likely to get the rope caught behind your leg but it does look like a big nasty swing. I've never taken a whip like that but I'd imagine it may be difficult to keep upright during such a long, violent fall.

I do not think it is possible to take a real slip and fall and not hit your head on this one. But I could be wrong, maybe I am just uncoordinated?

Certain climbs require a helmet, and you might not know which one those are until you fall on them. If you do not fall when you climb then you do not need a helmet on these climbs.

eli poss wrote: I respect your right to choose, but don't fool yourself into thinking that you're the only one that suffers from your death. You may be fine with it, but what about when you're belaying? I doubt your partner wants to get dropped just because you didn't want to wear a brain bucket. Also, it's your family who has to deal with the pain of your death, not you. Personally, I choose to wear my helmet any time I go climbing, except for bouldering. I don't wear it bouldering because I almost never boulder outside and the gym has padded floors. My helmet has saved my head from an huge impact after I landed on my feet on a ledge and fell backwards onto my back. The impact could have caused anything ranging from a lot of pain to increased ICP, and quite frankly I'm glad I didn't find out the hard way.

Well that is a decision the team makes. Everytime you go climb with someone you are taking a risk. There are people I know I would not ever go climbing with.

Owen Witesman wrote:People who free solo fifth class terrain should be ineligible for any medical coverage they can't pay for themselves out of pocket. Neither the state, hospitals, or other insured individuals should have to contribute to the costs of their intentional negligence. The problem is, medical ethics demand treatment regardless of culpability, so the larger society ends up stuck with the bill in the end.

What? You think people who freesolo are running up the cost of insurance? A butt load of people get hurt climbing every year. On approaches and rappels and climbs and boulders. Freesolo injuries or deaths are few and far between because falling is not an option. Gear mistakes and failures account for way more injuries and deaths than freesoloing. I say gear dependant hang danglers are running up the cost of insurance. JB

PS Sorry for the highjack, wear a helmet.

ViperScale wrote:There are people I know I would not ever go climbing with.

Good thing you can figure that out.