The deadly ATC

The 2.5kN is the force you want to generate with the belay device. Or more if possible!

The ranges given for rope diameter have often enough been critisised on here and elsewhere.
The difference in braking effect from varying rope diameter is considerable, here´s one of Bill Stronge´s graphs which shows the wild variations possible:-

Sometimes devices have peculiar sweet spots or weaknesses, typical are things like the Reverso series where one particular rope diameter fails to go down into the braking vee grooves at low hand forces so you see a peculiar result. The Smart has slightly different curves than the MegaJul even though they are effectively identical due to the shape of the rope relief slot (these types of device need to stop the karabiner coming against the body where the rope clamps as otherwise they jam up completely and it´s impossible to pay out rope again), the Smart it´s a flattish slot whereas on the Mega Jul it´s half round. The relief slot on the MegaJul is far too big for thin ropes, under load 7.8mm ropes are not jammed in any way by the karabiner i.e there is no assistance to the braking.

To go beyond all the charts and graphs, get back to the original thread, and put this in perspective. I think I’m on pretty solid ground making the claim that most belay accidents happen because of human error while cragging and gym climbing. That is where most of the inexperience lies. This is where assisted belay devices are useful no matter what brand you prefer. This is the wave of the future if you look at all the new belay devices being introduced at the 2017 trade show. Thanks to all the left brain people they will get better. Factor 2 falls are thankfully rare yet it dominates the thread down to the minutiae as to which device holds a F2 better. It looks like most belayers can’t hold one anyway. So I'll use an assisted belay device while sport cragging/gym climbing as it is way more comfortable when my fat partner is hang dogging and use my ATC XP Guide while multi-pitch trad climbing. The ATC XP Guide is much easier to pull rope through in guide mode anyway (than the MegaJu at least). And don’t use super skinny ropes at the low end of the accepted range of the device.

If I am belaying a potential FF2, I pull up 20-25 feet of rope downstream of my brake hand and either put a loosely tied knot or a clove and a biner in the line, so if I fail to arrest, it jams against the belay device. I can shake this out one handed. A frequent poster to this thread has previously said this is not a good solution, but it works for me. I have also posted the idea of of relocating the belay to lower down at times, or placing a first piece in the second pitch before bringing up the second, but I am almost always on doubles.

Luckily in forty years of climbing, the only time I have had to arrest a fall with nothing in, it was not straight on,the leader moved up and off at an angle.

gri gri style devises are great for aid climbing and new routing. When the leader is not going anywhere fast, contemplateing where the route will go, trundeling, and perhaps drilling and then falling and hanging etc the gri gri seems to be ideal. Also good for rope solo, jugging etc. I don't like useing it for normal climbing.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:When the leader is not going anywhere fast, contemplateing where the route will go, trundeling, and perhaps drilling and then falling and hanging etc the gri gri seems to be ideal. Also good for rope solo, jugging etc. I don't like useing it for normal climbing.

But....but....those things you mention ('cept for drilling) *are* my "normal climbing".

Nick Goldsmith wrote:gri gri style devises are great for aid climbing and new routing. When the leader is not going anywhere fast, contemplateing where the route will go, trundeling, and perhaps drilling and then falling and hanging etc the gri gri seems to be ideal. Also good for rope solo, jugging etc. I don't like useing it for normal climbing.

Gri-gris are the most popular device in the world for belaying the world's hardest current routes on redpoint/onsight attempts or projecting or anything else for that matter. This thread only reinforces why to me, as well as emphasizing that only belayer error has been demonstrated to cause them to fail rather than being an inherent part of their design like other devices.

I get that you don't like them, but it is not because they don't work for a very large portion of the best climbers. Use what you *trust* will work, not just what you are comfortable with atm is my advice. Other than weight and rapelling there is nothing not to like about a Gri-gri is my opinion.

Jim Titt wrote:Acceptable slip is around 1.5m to 2m...

I'd have quit climbing forty years ago if I ever experienced any significant slip at all when belaying. 2m of slip? If it gets moving that much the likelihood of most of today's belayers stopping it again versus just letting it rip becomes a relevant and serious question.

Nick Goldsmith wrote:gri gri style devises are great for aid climbing and new routing. When the leader is not going anywhere fast, contemplateing where the route will go, trundeling, and perhaps drilling and then falling and hanging etc the gri gri seems to be ideal. Also good for rope solo, jugging etc. I don't like useing it for normal climbing.

King Tut wrote: Gri-gris are the most popular device in the world for belaying the world's hardest routes on redpoint/onsight attempts or projecting or anything else for that matter. This thread only reinforces why to me, as well as emphasizing that only belayer error has been demonstrated to cause them to fail rather than being an inherent part of their design like other devices. I get that you don't like them, but it is not because they don't work for a very large portion of the best climbers. Use what you *trust* will work, not just what you are comfortable with atm is my advice. Other than weight and rapelling there is nothing not to like about a Gri-gri is my opinion.

That grigris are the most popular device for belaying the world's hardest routes on redpoint/onsight attempts or projecting or anything else for that matter has nothing whatsoever to do with climbing, its popularity rise is due solely on its utility for hanging. And you can claim drops with grigris only happen due to pilot error, but the reality is their use both masks and, in many ways, encourages the very belaying behaviors which result in drops. We don't have the stats, but I strongly suspect overall that grigris use causes at least as many if not more drops than they prevent.

That's a bold claim and difficult to find supporting evidence.

Jim, I noticed your tests were done with a 9mm rope. I personally don't own and have never used halves, twins, or singles less than 9.2mm. My go to rope atm is 9.7 and I rarely use ropes thinner than 9.4. Do you happen to have any data on 9.4mm or 9.5mm ropes? I'm particularly interested in the Alpine Up's performance as well as a munter hitch that is what I used most frequently but I'd love to see test results for a variety of devices. Y'know, if you get bored at work or something like that. Thanks

P.S. For future reference, when doing this kind of testing for halves and twins I think including the alpine up would be worthwhile as that is what I've seen most recommended for doubles

Hey Joe, how many grigri hate posts does it take until you get worn out of it? I mean you probably have a 1:1 ratio of grigri hate posts to good content. Do you never get tired of yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

;)

eli poss wrote:Hey Joe, how many grigri hate posts does it take until you get worn out of it? I mean you probably have a 1:1 ratio of grigri hate posts to good content. Do you never get tired of yelling "GET OFF MY LAWN!" ;)

It would be much easier to ignore if people with grigiris would stop dropping each other - are you thinking that's on the immediate radar for 2017? Tell you what, if there are less than a dozen grigri drop threads in 2017 you won't hear another peep from me on the subject.

Ted Pinson wrote:That's a bold claim and difficult to find supporting evidence.

I consider it a rather mundane and common sense claim once you really look at the device, how it is used and the behaviors that it breeds. Evidence? As I said, we don't have stats but tracking forum posts since both forums and grigris have been around is what makes the claim pretty easy to assert.

I ice climb on doubbles mostly and find that for most multi pitch free rock climbing the guide ATC works better for me. aid and FA's gri is better. i am open to whatever tool is best for the task. Did pinnacle buttress in my approach shoes this summer with a single half rope, no harness and just a locking biner for a belay devise. it's all good.

Healyje wrote: I consider it a rather mundane and common sense claim once you really look at the device, how it is used and the behaviors that it breeds. Evidence? As I said, we don't have stats but tracking forum posts since both forums and grigris have been around is what makes the claim pretty easy to assert.

Forum posts are a horrible form of evidence because they are largely anecdotal (I can't remember who said it on here, but it was brilliant: the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"). In general, when one wants to support a claim, anecdotal evidence is considered weak at best and mostly useless. Grigri accidents get reported more because they are more sensational since they are so surprising, given the nature of the device. You can't possibly argue that a Grigri is more inherently prone to dropping than an ATC by design; to drop someone with an ATC, literally all you have to do is let go. People have been caught by Grigris without the belayer's hand on the brake.

As far as the behaviors it breeds...this is plausible, but again: hard to prove. I could see some merit in the idea that it breeds complacency, because you don't have to do as much to catch/hold your climber. The much more likely explanation, however, is twofold:
1) Correlation does not imply causation.
2) The number of climbers is exponentially on the rise, particularly gym-trained climbers.
3) These climbers predominately climb with Grigris because that's what they were taught.

Truth be told, I'd predict that there would be a lot MORE drops if all of these climbers used ATC. People get dropped all the freaking time on ATCs, including last month at my gym. The most common culprit is getting your hand pinched by the device, or just not maintaining a firm grip on the brake and losing control. Why aren't there forum posts? Because the cause of the accident was obvious: "the Deadly ATC."

Ted, there are a number of folks out there that have used muters, stiche plates, tubers, ATCs, and the like for many years and rather successfully. And yes, by necessity, they have to pay more attention. Assisted belay devices (IMO) give you the sense that less attention is needed. They really work well for route setting and other such shenanigans, but given the years these other devices have been used and the relatively few years assisted belay devices have been used, and the drops recorded, I wonder if it all does not come back to the belayer, their skill, and attentiveness?

Ted Pinson wrote: Forum posts are a horrible form of evidence because they are largely anecdotal (I can't remember who said it on here, but it was brilliant: the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"). In general, when one wants to support a claim, anecdotal evidence is considered weak at best and mostly useless.

The stories of the drops are anecdotal, the drops they describe are not, they are very real.

Ted Pinson wrote:You can't possibly argue that a Grigri is more inherently prone to dropping than an ATC by design...

No, I wouldn't argue that. I'd argue grigri users across the demographic have a lower level of overall belaying competency, are highly prone to the behaviors the device breeds which can lead to dropping, and that - despite the autoblocking - a very significant number of them still manage to drop someone when their incompetency bleeds through the device in one of the many ways we've seen. The fact the device tends to mask the very incompetence it breeds is the only reason far more aren't dropped.

Ted Pinson wrote:...to drop someone with an ATC, literally all you have to do is let go

Yes, and behaviorally that was always a good thing because the consequences of letting go of the rope were so patently obvious versus the masking that goes on with grigris. But with the explosive expansion of the demographic and the lack of a weeding out of incompetence the result has been an associated rise in ATC drops which were unthinkable in the past. But again, the overriding issue is competence, not devices.

Ted Pinson wrote:3) These climbers predominately climb with Grigris because that's what they were taught.

And the reason they're taught that is because of the devices efficacy in holding hanging climbers and masking incompetence - not because it's a better belay device because it's not.

Ted Pinson wrote:People get dropped all the freaking time on ATCs...

Now who's speculating? Based on what evidence as you would say? Anecdotal?

Roy: Of course it does. A competent belayer is safe regardless of whether they are using a Grigri, an ATC, or a hip belay (as Rich demonstrated!). That said, a competent belayer with a Grigri is safer than a competent belayer with an ATC, for the simple fact that they will not drop their climber in cases of rock fall or belayer incapacitation (like the story that started this thread, incidentally).

Healyje wrote: The stories of the drops are anecdotal, the drops they describe are not, they are very real.

I'm not sure if you understand what "anecdotal" means. I'm not saying that they didn't happen, but rather that these isolated cases do not necessarily imply a pattern nor count as "data."

Healyje wrote:No, I wouldn't argue that. I'd argue grigri users across the demographic have a lower level of overall belaying competency, are highly prone to the behaviors the device breeds which can lead to dropping, and that - despite the autoblocking - a very significant number of them still manage to drop someone when their incompetency bleeds through the device in one of the many ways we've seen.

I completely agree. Why does that mean we should blame the device, not the belayer, though?

Healyje wrote:The fact the device tends to mask the very incompetence it breeds is the only reason far more aren't dropped. Yes, and behaviorally that was always a good thing because the consequences of letting go of the rope were so patently obvious versus the masking that goes on with grigris. But with the explosive expansion of the demographic and the lack of a weeding out of incompetence the result has been an associated rise in ATC drops which were unthinkable in the past. But again, the overriding issue is competence, not devices. And the reason they're taught that is because of the devices efficacy in holding hanging climbers and masking incompetence - not because it's a better belay device because it's not.

Again, I agree. I was personally taught to belay using an ATC and then learned to use a Grigri later, but I'm thankful for those ATC instincts even when using a Grigri. I'm kind of amazed at how common it is for people to clamp down on the climber's side of the rope during a fall, for example, as this would be inconceivable on an ATC.

Healyje wrote:Now who's speculating? Based on what evidence as you would say? Anecdotal?

That's kind of my point. See why I don't think it works as evidence?

Healyje wrote: It would be much easier to ignore if people with grigiris would stop dropping each other - are you thinking that's on the immediate radar for 2017? Tell you what, if there are less than a dozen grigri drop threads in 2017 you won't hear another peep from me on the subject. I consider it a rather mundane and common sense claim once you really look at the device, how it is used and the behaviors that it breeds. Evidence? As I said, we don't have stats but tracking forum posts since both forums and grigris have been around is what makes the claim pretty easy to assert.

Honestly, I am sympathetic in the sense that I agree without question that gri-gris promote bad technique *among the inexperienced* however, I believe somewhere up thread there was a presentation of evidence that ATC drops are a majority of those presented in "Accidents in North America" by the AAC.

I myself have been dropped at least 3 times with fortunately, no adverse consequences for myself, once with a gri-gri. In that case, it was belayer incompetence gripping the climber side of the rope that prevented the device from activating as well as the GYM TR anchor that takes much of the needed force. It was a rapid lower that burned her hands a little, but nothing serious. The other cases were a little more severe, but those were with hip belays and tube devices respectively.

Anyways, if you want to argue that the gri-gri promotes bad habits among newbies that don't understand them, I am agreed and I was fortunate to learn about that first hand without harsh penalty. However, given my size (6'2", 235) I am terrified looking at a small person belaying me with an ATC...So I feel far safer with a gri-gri rather than being dependent on grip strength and tolerance for burns to save my life in a severe fall.

In competent hands what this thread clearly demonstrates is a gri-gri does not fail to stop the climber, and all tube devices are flat out dangerous unless the belayer is gloved and very competent. If they aren't gloved, then the best belayer in the world potentially would fail to stop a FF2 fall, but a gri-gri most definitely will. That is why I use one.

Ted Pinson wrote:(like the story that started this thread, incidentally).

Actually, while rockfall was involved in the story, the cause of the accident was deblayer incompetence, not incapacitation.

Ted Pinson wrote:That said, a competent belayer with a Grigri is safer than a competent belayer with an ATC, for the simple fact that they will not drop their climber in cases of rock fall or belayer incapacitation (like the story that started this thread, incidentally).

Given annual incidence of belayer incapacitation is a vanishingly small percent of total belays in a year I would say the margin of safety you're talking about is basically incidental compared with the risk of being dropped by a grigri user which happens way, way more often that a leader is saved by a grigri-using incapacitated belayer. Again, we don't have stats, but c'mon, it's not hard to guess that one.

I agree. Truth be told, it's probably about as high as the margin for wearing helmets...but it isn't nothing.