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I'm going to throw this out there as food for thought, not with the intent to just argue some more.

Thread history
I pointed out that it looked like a bolted 5.12 in the NRG would go on gear and was met with. "So what, local ethics state that's OK" and "Anything goes in the NRG as long as you are putting up good routes". No problem, when in Rome.....I know when to shut up. Next time I'll do a little research before spouting off. (probably not)

Focus goes back to the bolted boulder and the Tiptons are ripped for their bolting ethics.

It appears the Tiptons are focusing their efforts on a small area of rock in the Lucerne valley. They seem to be developing it entirely on their own and it doesn't look like anything there is very tall.

I would say then that the "over-bolted" (my opinion) short routes are in keeping with the "local ethics" and the Tiptons should get the same "pass" for their bolting ethics as anyone else should they not?

As a result of this thread they have pulled down all the route info for the area in order to prevent further ridicule.

If "local ethics" trumps "general ethics" it's hard to draw the line. JB

djh860 wrote:Didn't Dave Graham make a 14' sport route at rumney?

No. The Fly is about 25' tall and is one of the short routes I was alluding to above. I am not necessarily sure I would bolt it nowadays as bouldering standards have advanced quite a bit since then. It is in the middle of a sport crag where the idea was to have fun pulling hard moves with relative safety. Without a huge pile of pads and spotters the landing is pretty sketchy. By the way, everybody who has climbed the route, whether rope protected or bouldered, has used the bolts extensively while working it.

John Barritt wrote:They seem to be developing it entirely on their own and it doesn't look like anything there is very tall. I would say then that the "over-bolted" (my opinion) short routes are in keeping with the "local ethics" and the Tiptons should get the same "pass" for their bolting ethics as anyone else should they not? If "local ethics" trumps "general ethics" it's hard to draw the line. JB

This is probably a fair point. But even if the Tiptons should get a "pass" for following the local bolting standards, the local bolting standards themselves deserve criticism based on what we're seeing here.

If the rock quality is OK, these routes look like fun.
Maybe they will draw some of the crowds from JTree.

Driving and hiking in the area is likely to cause vastly more impact than the bolts themselves.

Not a local though, so my opinion doesn't carry much weight.

Came across this gem on the supertopo thread and felt compelled to share it. Laughed as loud as I could afford to without alerting my boss that I'm not actually doing any work right now:

Some guy on supertopo wrote:To half the people on this thread- you wouldn't climb it with the bolts, and you sure as hell wouldn't climb it without them. So stfu and let this couple have their little zone of overbolted mini choss meth domes.

n00b wrote:This is probably a fair point.

It isn't a fair point. Yes, people can develop 'local ethics', but only within the larger, rough context of 'accepted norms' in the US. The idea that the first people there (they aren't) can do anything they want and call it 'local ethics' devoid of reference to even loosely accepted norms in the US is ridiculous - if that were the case someone could roll up to a new area and slap a thousand gym holds on or chisel all the routes and call it 'local ethics'. At least a little common sense is in order with this sort of thing.

Healyje wrote: It isn't a fair point. Yes, people can develop 'local ethics', but only within the larger, rough context of 'accepted norms' in the US. The idea that the first people there (they aren't) can do anything they want and call it 'local ethics' devoid of reference to even loosely accepted norms in the US is ridiculous - if that were the case someone could roll up to a new area and slap a thousand gym holds on or chisel all the routes and call it 'local ethics'. At least a little common sense is in order with this sort of thing.

Did you read the rest of what I wrote? I specifically made the point that if the local ethics allow for what they did, those ethics need to be reconsidered--i.e. I agreed with you:

n00b wrote: This is probably a fair point. But even if the Tiptons should get a "pass" for following the local bolting standards, the local bolting standards themselves deserve criticism based on what we're seeing here.

Alright, to play devil's advocate for a second - maybe the boulder did not have a safe way down? I don't outdoor boulder much, but I've definitely seen people rap/lower off of highball boulders before. So they figured ";well, I'm bolting a rap anchor, may as well bolt the rest of thing while I'm here since you'll need a rope to get down anyways?"; Granted, it probably should have had only 1 or 2 bolts for the whole thing, but I can see how things could get out of control.

They're an hour down the road from J Tree. Unless the climbing community is going to get into gerrymandering, I don't think anyone can make a coherent argument for bolting boulders being "local ethics."

On the constructive criticism side of the house, maybe we as a community should leave the wang slapping to Aleks and politely educate them on how to best develop this area.

Matt Stroebel wrote:maybe we as a community should leave the wang slapping to Alex's...

Fu€k that.. Where's Burch? He would fight both of'em! You know since husband and wife are one MPer and all..

Bill Kirby wrote: Fu€k that.. Where's Burch? He would fight both of'em! You know since husband and wife are one MPer and all..

As long as Burch uses a fish head...

But seriously, we have two people who are willing to put in the time and money to develop routes. So we shouldn't bite their heads off, we should guide them. Because most of us like to climb new routes and don't have the time or money to develop them ourselves.

Matt Stroebel wrote:They're an hour down the road from J Tree. Unless the climbing community is going to get into gerrymandering, I don't think anyone can make a coherent argument for bolting boulders being "local ethics." On the constructive criticism side of the house, maybe we as a community should leave the wang slapping to Aleks and politely educate them on how to best develop this area.

No thanks, I think it would behoove us to use the Supertopo method of "community gauntlet" then rely on a single obvious troll handing out the insults.

Bill Kirby wrote: Fu€k that.. Where's Burch? He would fight both of'em! You know since husband and wife are one MPer and all..

That's right!!!!

Admin's already on me because I posted their picture on this thread, so I have to find another way to be involved!111!111 This is serious stuff!1!!

I've been reading this thread and it amazes me how self righteous people can be. I've done Reckless Abandon it's great just the way it is. I've had complaints about some routes that perhaps shouldn't have been bolted but I'm not about to make a fuss about them. The one time I really had a problem with a bolted line, I put one up next to it on gear and that was the end of that. I remember talking to Doug Reed about just this sort of thing. If a route needs bolts but there's one place where you can get gear, what's the point of not bolting it completely? May as well just finish the job and make it a sport route.

As for the New and it's ethics, they have a great mix of routes that are safe or bold so pick and choose. Personally, it's my favorite area, period. Love the rock, the climbs and the people. I've never not had a great time down there.

Burcheydawwwwwwg wrote: That's right!!!! Admin's already on me because I posted their picture on this thread, so I have to find another way to be involved!111!111 This is serious stuff!1!!

Ha! I saw your post on Supertopo, good stuff!

How would you know how good their bolts are without inspecting them? What they bolted doesn't say anything about the quality of the placements. I've seen some shoddy bolts by some experienced climbers and route developers. I've placed a couple I wasn't thrilled with myself, and I've placed a few.

Everytime a bolt gets clipped, god kills a puppy.

Drew Sylvester wrote: Uh, no. Given what they've bolted, I wouldn't trust that they did it properly or have any idea what the hell they're doing. Instead I will continue to donate money to people and groups that bolt and maintain routes, that DO appear to know what they hell they're doing. I think a little public shaming is appropriate here; we don't need to hold their hands, they need to take the initiative to learn. Or continue to be ridiculed, suck it up and take their lumps. Their choice.

For the sake of argument lets assume their technique is bad. You think they will stop bolting because the community humiliated them? Do you think this will inspire them to seek out an experienced mentor from the community and learn how to do bolt correctly?

Probably not.

So instead of fixing the problem, this community shaming will ensure that they don't document the routes they put up or install solid bolts. Eventually someone will climb these routes and deck because a bolt pulled when their shouldn't have been a bolt there in the first place.

But sure, internet community shaming is the way to climbing Nirvana!

jgfox wrote: Ha! I saw your post on Supertopo, good stuff!

I just got banned on ST!

Serious business!11!

How the hell do you get banned on ST and not on MP? Bizzaro world.