Euro Death Knot, Flat Overhand, Barrel Knot evolution

Yo Topher--I know Dylan Taylor tested a bunch of knots at the Petzl facility during the last AMGA meeting...maybe worth a chat with him---

Psyched to check out the book and congrats! RC

https://user.xmission.com/~tmoyer/testing/EDK.html

EDK, eight, and double fish

edited to add another link...since we're linking

needlesports.com/content/ab…

Exactly the reason I use an EDK.

And, I've tested the EDK on loosely tied, frozen and thin ice climbing ropes. No issues even when shock loaded the knot in a 3 foot fall onto it.

I do like the looks of the in-line barrel knot, but, as mentioned above, its more difficult to inspect. Plus, no pull test data.

I'd also like to understand the details of the guide death in Europe.

The barrel knot seems like a good compromise knot when you're climbing with partners who don't trust the overhand and are trying to talk you into using a double fisherman. It feels convincingly solid and is flat so that's nice. Other than that I don't see any advantages... it's harder to untie and as long as you know you shouldn't tie a flat eight, I don't see how it's any more or less foolproof to tie than the overhand. As for the overhand rolling... isn't that only an issue for sopping wet ropes of unequal diameter at high loads (I.e. Basically never in a rappelling situation)?

As the barrel knot is already another name for a double fisherman's depending on convention, I'd like to propose we call it the Packet Knot, as the Germans have been doing for some time:

de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paket…

Anyone interested in data on the knot can refer to Semmel's testing (found in the wikipedia references):

alpenverein.de/chameleon/pu…

Another EDK thread, good we hardly ever get the chance to discuss this. The EDK has been tested literally a million times and it's perfectly fine when tied correctly. I've pull tested the EDK with 11mm joined to 6mm cord, and I couldent get it to roll once. I've jammed the knot in quicklinks and rap rings and still pulled the rope to failure. The UIAA has also tested it several times and even published a short video of their testing. The knot is fine. The problem is the people who dont tie it correctly.

20kN,

What do you suppose Dale is referring to with speciality tag lines?
This is a recent quote. And yes, I agree the Flat overhand(EDK) is the way to go..

________________

A note from AMGA Technical Director, Dale Remsberg - "As the debate continues on social media regarding the use of the Flat Overhand, I felt it was important clarify some of the information. The AMGA recommends the Flat Overhand for joining two rappel ropes together for the purpose of rappelling. There are some rare situations that the Flat Overhand may not be the best choice and we recommend that you contact a certified guide to clarify any of these situations. One example - Joining a specialty tag line to a dynamic rope. The AMGA uses and will continue to use a Flat Overhand for most rappelling applications as it is simple, strong enough, and much less likely to get hung up in cracks and on edges.

one of the issues you mention is basically along the lines of 'the knot being too complicated to tie correctly in dark, freezing, etc...', yet the knot you recommend is definitely more complicated and easier to screw up than the infinitely simple EDK?

like others have said, i have a ton of respect for your accomplishments, but i think you are totally in left field. it seems more like an already hashed and re-hashed to death solution looking for an already hashed and re-hashed to death problem.

do you have any more details on the austrian death? if he accidently tied the flat eight (or whatever you want to call it), then your stance will seem kind of needlessly melodramatic.

Why do you consider the barrel knot superior to the flat overhand with a second overhand on one of the tails to prevent the know from rolling? The flat overhand tied in this way is more resistant to rolling than the regular overhand and has a smaller profile than the barrel knot.

Cor wrote:20kN, What do you suppose Dale is referring to with speciality tag lines? This is a recent quote. And yes, I agree the Flat overhand(EDK) is the way to go.. ________________ A note from AMGA Technical Director, Dale Remsberg - "As the debate continues on social media regarding the use of the Flat Overhand, I felt it was important clarify some of the information. The AMGA recommends the Flat Overhand for joining two rappel ropes together for the purpose of rappelling. There are some rare situations that the Flat Overhand may not be the best choice and we recommend that you contact a certified guide to clarify any of these situations. One example - Joining a specialty tag line to a dynamic rope. The AMGA uses and will continue to use a Flat Overhand for most rappelling applications as it is simple, strong enough, and much less likely to get hung up in cracks and on edges.

Well, you'd have to ask him, but the way I read it he appears to be referring to joining your lead rope with a pull cord like 60m of 7mm tag line. On several occasions I've heard people say not to use the EDK on different diameter ropes. Some chick even felt the need to tell me this on El Cap Tower. Anyway, that's what specifically prompted me to do some pull testing with the thickest, most burly rope I could find and the thinnest tag line anyone would ever dare rapping off on which prompted me to test a well-used 11mm static rope with brand new 6mm cord. In the end, no matter how much of a difference there was a in diameters, I couldn't get the knot to come untied or even roll for that matter. The tag line always broke before anything happened. I've been using 6mm tag lines and the EDK to join ropes together for years. I normally climb on a 9.4, but I've used it on ropes as thick as 10.5mm.

It may very well be that a greater difference in diameters of rope causes the knot to roll easier, but with a well-tensioned EDK, 6mm broke around 1400 lbf without rolling.

Maybe guides and science just don't make good bed fellows.

Cor wrote:The AMGA uses and will continue to use a Flat Overhand for most rappelling applications as it is simple, strong enough, and much less likely to get hung up in cracks and on edges.

"much less likely to get hung up in cracks and on edges." Has there ever been any data to support this claim?

20 kN wrote: Well, you'd have to ask him, but the way I read it he appears to be referring to joining your lead rope with a pull cord like 60m of 7mm tag line. On several occasions I've heard people say not to use the EDK on different diameter ropes. Some chick even felt the need to tell me this on El Cap Tower. Anyway, that's what specifically prompted me to do some pull testing with the thickest, most burly rope I could find and the thinnest tag line anyone would ever dare rapping off on which prompted me to test a well-used 11mm static rope with brand new 6mm cord. In the end, no matter how much of a difference there was a in diameters, I couldn't get the knot to come untied or even roll for that matter. The tag line always broke before anything happened. I've been using 6mm tag lines and the EDK to join ropes together for years. I normally climb on a 9.4, but I've used it on ropes as thick as 10.5mm. It may very well be that a greater difference in diameters of rope causes the knot to roll easier, but with a well-tensioned EDK, 6mm broke around 1400 lbf without rolling.

Recent small-sample testing at Petzl showed the flat overhand tied with ropes of differing diameters rolled at HIGHER forces than ropes of similar diameter. Don't recall the particulars on the cords...and not sure what Dale means about "specialty tag lines"--I have an email in to him to ask..and will share if I hear back...

coppolillo wrote: Recent small-sample testing at Petzl showed the flat overhand tied with ropes of differing diameters rolled at HIGHER forces than ropes of similar diameter. Don't recall the particulars on the cords...and not sure what Dale means about "specialty tag lines"--I have an email in to him to ask..and will share if I hear back...

Do you have a link to the testing?

This should have been on the first page....

My totally uninformed guess regarding "specialty tag lines" is it might be referring to 5.5mm Spectra/Dyneema cord that's more slippery than other cords. When using it to tie hexes and stuff, the manufacturer recommends a triple fishermans.

I agree with most of the sentiment here. I know we want to give a high profile climber's opinion more weight than a gumby's, but that was a pretty low quality original post and a pretty unconvincing blog entry. I'm open to changing my ways---I tie in almost exclusively with a retraced bowline (bowline on a bight) after seeing it here for the first time years ago. But I'm so far unimpressed with talk of the merits of a barrel knot.

I'd just like to add that there is truly, literally no such thing as "safe" in climbing. It's dangerous as hell. Everybody needs to figure out what is "safe enough" for them. The double fishermans, the barrel knot, and many other knots might be "safer" in some regards, and there are all kinds of ways I could do other things I do more safely. But the flat-overhand is absolutely safe enough for me. I'm not saying I won't ever change anything if I'm convinced of a meaningful benefit. The barrel knot has no meaningful benefit to me. I mean does the barrel knot have some hidden mode of failure that's actually more likely than the vanishingly rare (nonexistent?) failures of the flat-overhand? I dunno

Brian Abram wrote:But the flat-8 is absolutely safe enough for me. I'm not saying I won't ever change anything if I'm convinced of a meaningful benefit. The barrel knot has no meaningful benefit to me.

I understand people have different tolerances for risk, but I really hope you don't actually find a flat 8 to be acceptable. The flat overhand, on the other hand, is a great. To me, using a flat 8 seems like a death wish, akin to free soloing on choss. I agree, the barrel knot doesn't seem to be better than most other knots, so I'll stick to my flat overhand.

I mistyped and corrected it. Thanks for catching that. The flat-8 is terrible. I kinda feel bad. This is one way misinformation is spread

Derek, I think "Knoten nicht geeignet" is my new favorite German phrase.

Does anyone know the details of the Austrian guide death involving the flat overhand knot? What the circumstances, rope types, etc. were?