MP Forum Tone

it doesn't help in the sexism department that photos of women keep making it to the main page due to consistent high reviews for men gawking all over them. perhaps a revision of how pics make it to the main page is in order?
and this is by no means a knock on the actual photos, girls should not feel any hesitation to post climbing pics and its not right they should have to be concerned about a bunch of guys drooling over them.

M Sprague wrote: Before we were all posting on forums you dealt directly with the people you were addressing and they let you know if you were rude, either directly or by not having anything to do with you afterwards. If you sent in a letter to a magazine it was checked by an editor.

Making me all misty eyed. Direct communication was an awesome thing..

Nick Wilder wrote:I, my colleagues, and many MP members are disturbed by the increasingly hostile and misogynist posts in the Mountain Project forum. We are going to take some steps to address this: 1. We will more aggressively delete posts that violate our only rule: don’t be a jerk. 2. We are asking you, the community, to use the “Flag” button to point out problems. There is too much volume for us to proactively review all posts, so we rely on that feature being used. We take the Flag notifications very seriously. 3. Long term, we are going to add features that will reduce the admin role and empower the community to act as moderators. We believe that most problem posts get an outsized amount of attention from a small number of members, and we think we can build tools that will make topics more balanced. I am proud of the Mountain Project community we have built together, and while I don’t expect to like or agree with every forum post, we will work harder to maintain a respectful forum that we can be proud of too.

I'd like to see some actual quotes demonstrating how awful things have become, and not just a few scattered examples.

I'm not convinced MP is any more misogynist than before.
I do think the expected standard of behavior/posting has changed after the FF threads, so that comments that seemed mildly inappropriate before are now seen as egregious.
I'm generally OK with that, although would prefer that folks could keep at least a little bit of a sense of humor.
I think if the code re-write puts an end to rewarding points for photo comments, some of the creepiness might be mitigated.

I don't think things are nearly as hostile as they have been in the past.
Now that BB is gone, what feuds do we have left?
Byrnes vs Titt? Pretty mild fireworks there.
JQ gets fired up once in a while, but even he's been quiet lately.

Regardless, if you find somebody's post offensive, guess what?

There's a solution already- FLAG IT!
Sounds like you'll get a sympathetic hearing from newly delete-happy admins.

As for poor persecuted BB, he was a major instigator in his various feuds. Don't get me wrong, I'd be happy to have him back, but IIRC he went nuclear first in that famous last tread.
I didn't approve of RP posting BB's picture, but it really wasn't particularly unflattering (kind of a normal looking guy) and I figured BB could defend himself. He could have even flagged it had he wished to do so.

As for rudeness to "dumb n00b" questions...
except for Shane and Caleb, the rest of us are volunteers.
If somebody wants to ask strangers on the internet to answer a question for him/her for free, then ask in an interesting fashion, ask nicely and don't whine too much if you get teased.
If the teasing goes too far, then guess what the solution is? FLAG!!!!

If we get rid of the drama, the various rap/lower wars, the feuds, the jokes, then really the forum has no point.

Just publish a FAQ revealing the best belay device, and where to camp in Boulder, and why titanium bolts are the greatest and so on.

Kurt G. wrote:it doesn't help in the sexism department that photos of women keep making it to the main page due to consistent high reviews for men gawking all over them...

This is one of my dilemmas. People throw out the idea that there's all this sexism, racism, misogyny out there. I used know what those things meant, but then shit got all vague and abstract.

Is the idea you're trying to communicate that we're sexist against men or women in this instance? I honestly can't tell, though I suspect it's the latter. What you are seeing as an instance of sexism I hadn't even noticed happened, and supposing I did notice wouldn't think of it as sexism.

Perhaps I'm due for the re-education camp, too.

Mark E Dixon wrote: I do think the expected standard of behavior/posting has changed after the FF threads, so that comments that seemed mildly inappropriate before are now seen as egregious.

This is so true and I didn't even realize it.

Old lady H wrote: Hmmmm..... Is there a statute of limitations? Eh? Elena Bwa Ha

I think you can flag me in the archive :-)

If you stumble across the "Ice climbing in Canada" thread though, please share!
I have never been able to find it again.

r m wrote: This is one of my dilemmas. People throw out the idea that there's all this sexism, racism, misogyny out there. I used know what those things meant, but then shit got all vague and abstract. Is the idea you're trying to communicate that we're sexist against men or women in this instance? I honestly can't tell, though I suspect it's the latter. What you are seeing as an instance of sexism I hadn't even noticed happened, and supposing I did notice wouldn't think of it as sexism. Perhaps I'm due for the re-education camp, too.

im saying you don't see the reverse, women constantly rating a guy climbing in just a pair of tight shorts to the point where it constantly shows up on the main page. its not fair to women that they climb in a sports bra and yoga pants and then guys rate it highly because theyre turned on by it. then all those ratings put it to the front page and it just turns into a vicious cycle with more high ratings to keep it up there.
we need a revamp of what gets pics to the main page because we will never be able to stop these pics from getting rated highly by a drooling idiot.
I know this could bring up a ton of arguments, both pro and con, but I feel the majority of what makes it to the main page is due to objectification.

Old lady H wrote: Elena Bwa Ha

Yeah, and with respect to all of this, and speaking of which, I used to go "troll hunting" whenever she'd open a new account and start again.
She usually started without being so egregious as to get locked/banned.
So I'd poke her into it and then she'd cross the line and get banned.

I crossed the line once trying to get her started. An admin/owner wrote me and told me I crossed the line & one of us (I forget) deleted the post.

So was I sore about it? No. I just wrote back and said "OK, your office, your rules." and I don't think there has been a problem since.

Shrug, OK, so it was in poorer taste than I thought, and yeah, it was INTENDED to provoke, but apparently hit a broader target than intended.

I've been a little surprised at what has been left to fly at times, and a little surprised at what has not. On the balance of things, I hardly feel as if it has been oppressive, and acknowledge that my 'sensibilities' are not the same as those of others, so I don't expect a 1:1 agreement on what should get moderated.

So count me as not terribly alarmed that this might happen. To a shrugging degree, I expect that the screws would tighten a bit when a site is owned by a private, but very public entity that has to be concerned with its image.
If it gets ridiculous, I'll leave the site ("so long, and thanks for the fish.") but until that time, I don't figure too much hand-wringing about it is going to do much for anybody.

Don't know if anybody heard, but there are CRAG access issues and environmental issues, and wars and all this other stuff - that's what keeps me awake at night. That, and wondering if it really will be sunny and 52deg on Sunday. I hope so.

Cheers!

I miss Killis.

We should also import that GlassgowKiss guy from Cascade Climbers, dude is a real wanker.

Old lady H wrote: And just for the record, I don't want to hear about no stinkin' fifty degrees. THAT is painful. OLH

My post wasn;t really directed at you, specifically, just that your mention reminded me of trollenor and how she fits into this.

But as for 50deg, You think that's painful to think about?

Try this one on... I'm shocked it was not yet 'moderated (actually, no, I'm not).

Burcheydawwwwwwg wrote:I miss Killis. We should also import that GlassgowKiss guy from Cascade Climbers, dude is a real wanker.

I think I read three threads on Cascade Climbers over the years. I think the layout turned me off or something. The Taco has been alright, but it had its heyday of contributors. None the less, it still lives. I think Werner must have asked to have his account closed, like so many others have when they got fed up with their experience posting on Supertopo. It's possible he was banned by a nOOb mod, but I don't know if I believe that.

Killis was pretty funny as I recall. His vendetta with Misty Murphy was hilarious. His anti-bolt screeds were a hoot, as were his tirades against permadraws. I myself can't get enough of threads asking for the return of project draws that have been up for months. Not that I approve of the theft, just that it really shouldn't surprise anyone. Does that make me cynical?

Helen, sorry if we thought you were a troll known as Helenor, but the two Helen names in the username got us thinking that way. And get this, even IF you are actually Helenor (ha ha) it would be fine. How you interact now is what matters. That goes for all people, trolls or no. We loved Jeff Batten on Supertopo, rec.climbing, et al. because at heart you could tell he was an OK guy. His trolls were benevolent to a large degree. Wish he was still around.

I know this Presidential election has run a lot of us ragged. I'm singing "Let It Go" now, so there's that.

OK, are we over the logo yet?

Kent Richards wrote: Are you saying that since there's been a lot of improvement, we don't need to continue improving? Do you personally want to be discriminating or offensive? If not, do you want to know when you're doing it, so that you can stop?

I'm just saying that I am sick of the word overlords that have somehow gained enough control that I now have learn a list of hyper sensitive micro aggression's and banned phrases and questions so that some nearly non existent audience here on MP won't be offended. Lets be real this forum is 90% men and it fueled by testosterone. its going to be boisterous. Feeling will get rubbed the wrong way. it is the way of the male forum. I was on a poker forum that was brutal. if people didn't like your comments you got hammered. Why did I go back again and again? To learn. The same reason I come here. This place is milk toast compared to 1000's of forums. Why does it need to change because the thought overlords at REI want it to be politically correct. not so it will be a better climbing forum but only so it will politically correct. again I call BS on that.

djh860 wrote: I'm just saying that I am sick of the word overlords that have somehow gained enough control that I now have learn a list of hyper sensitive micro aggression's and banned phrases and questions so that some nearly non existent audience here on MP won't be offended. Lets be real this forum is 90% men and it fueled by testosterone. its going to be boisterous. Feeling will get rubbed the wrong way. it is the way of the male forum. I was on a poker forum that was brutal. if people didn't like your comments you got hammered. Why did I go back again and again? To learn. The same reason I come here. This place is milk toast compared to 1000's of forums. Why does it need to change because the thought overlords at REI want it to be politically correct. not so it will be a better climbing forum but only so it will politically correct. again I call BS on that.

Easy, it's their backyard, their rules. if you don't like it there's always Super Topo. RC.com and other forums that may better suit your testosterone fueled ideas.
Claiming "it's mostly male" ergo should be crass, is a cop out. The only reason people on forums are arseholes is because of anonymity. Most would never commit to majority of the BS that they post online in any other environment that had a public presence.
It's pretty simple really dont be a dick, and dont post anything you would not want someone saying to your mother or sister or daughter other loved ones.

djh860 wrote: I'm just saying that I am sick of the word overlords that have somehow gained enough control that I now have learn a list of hyper sensitive micro aggression's and banned phrases and questions so that some nearly non existent audience here on MP won't be offended. Lets be real this forum is 90% men and it fueled by testosterone.

Many men have spoken out in favor of the change, too. It looks like a lot of men on the forum care enough about the concerns of the female community members and have enough desire to make the forum more pleasant for females that they're willing to change their behavior and work toward something better...

Edit: It's not all women, though. It's about the overall tone of the forum.

djh860 wrote: Why does it need to change because the thought overlords at REI want it to be politically correct. not so it will be a better climbing forum but only so it will politically correct. again I call BS on that.

Again, it sounds as though there are many actual forum members who support the change. REI and political correctness can't be used as scapegoats here.

So I've climbed a lot of pitches and drank more than a few beers with Mr Caylor, I'll confirm that he's a total salad tosser. Or a great guy, depending on opinion on tossed salads.

I've stopped posting much because thus website has been overcome with people who believe their voice matters, even when they don't have anything worthwhile to add. I see too many 2-5 year climbers spouting off like they know something and drowning out the advice of the 20, 30 and even 60 year climbers.

To me, rule #1 has caused this.

It's the interactive nature of the beast. The is a "post reply" button but not a "read and learn" or "reflect and shut up" button.

You mean your button doesn't say: play and spray?

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote:To me, rule #1 has caused this.

So, should we hire Lord Slime?

The day that climbing and mountaineering requires an official human resources policy is the day that it lost its soul.

This is exactly the sexist, unwelcoming, boyz-club stuff that needs to never appear here again. Exactly.

Really why? Is being a man such a bad thing for the world that we have to act more like women to be socially acceptable ?

djh860 wrote:This is exactly the sexist, unwelcoming, boyz-club stuff that needs to never appear here again. Exactly. Really why? Is being a man such a bad thing for the world that we have to act more like women to be socially acceptable ?

That has nothing to do with acting like a man.