Lowering full 70m on one rope

FrankPS wrote: The autoblock is meant to be employed for lowering when you are belaying/lowering from the top.

From my own AMGA training and certifications, the autoblock for lowering from the top is applied only when lowering with a munter. When lowering with an autoblocking device (grigri et al) you only need to redirect the brake strand back through the anchor to pas AMGA certification. (My last certification was 6 years ago so things may have changed in that time period)

kevin deweese wrote: From my own AMGA training and certifications, the autoblock for lowering from the top is applied only when lowering with a munter. When lowering with an autoblocking device (grigri et al) you only need to redirect the brake strand back through the anchor to pas AMGA certification. (My last certification was 6 years ago so things may have changed in that time period)

I thought the autoblock should be used with any lowering system that is not assisted locking. Not just the munter, but also a defeated ATC Guide in guide mode or any other guide-style devices.

Re:A backup for lowering/AMGA practice

The answer is that you and Kevin are both correct.

In the AMGA SPI curriculum they do not teach/allow using an ATC in guide mode for either belaying at the top or lowering; they teach only the Munter or GRiGri type device. So yes, backup the lower when using the Munter; OK to not back up the GriGri (only redirect).

The next level of AMGA certification (Rock instructor/rock guide) teaches and uses the ATC Guide Mode. So if lowering when using a Guide Mode device, then back up the lower.

wow... this sure got complicated quick.

Your already belaying someone.... they fall off... so you lower them all the way back down to the deck. Nothing wrong with doing that... I do it all the time when the situation warrants it.

So The AMGA.. now forbids ATC lowering, whatever.

It's true that the use of plaquette style devices is not taught in SPI courses, which emphasize the use of munters and gri gris. That doesn't mean the AMGA prohibits direct lowers with tube style devices. That's nonsense.

The AMGA emphasizes application, defined as applying the right tool in the right place and right time. The fact is that for single pitch instructional environments, there are better tools than plaquettes for the typical tasks Instructors need to accomplish. The SPI curriculum reflects this.

If you're really worried about the person's skills, I'd say that having them arrive alone at the anchor you're lowering them to and trusting them to clip in safely (or build an anchor!?) seems even more complicated than rappelling. I'd set them up to rappel, and then rap myself with extensive demonstration of how to rap as I left the anchor, then keep them on a fireman's belay as they rapped. All the while I'd be cursing myself for exposing such an inexperienced person to this situation (I've done it too!). This way you're in control the whole time, most especially when they're getting established at the lower anchor, which could have tragic consequences if effed up.

The OP wanted to know if lowering to the ground is OK... the ground is pretty safe.

One must never let folks who are inexperienced take over for themselves, work the gear etc...clip in.

This is the story about what can and did go wrong.... it is sad. RIP to the young climber:

supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;tn=80

Guy Keesee wrote:The OP wanted to know if lowering to the ground is OK... the ground is pretty safe. One must never let folks who are inexperienced take over for themselves, work the gear etc...clip in. This is the story about what can and did go wrong.... it is sad. RIP to the young climber: supertopo.com/climbing/thre…;tn=80

Ah, gotcha. I misunderstood the "2 full pitches" thing.

Did anyone else notice that Daniel Joder and Knude Loggen replied and automatically assumed the new climber was a female?? The OP gendered their partner as male, so it leaves me wondering why they assumed something else after it was clear that partner was male.

It was not my intention to assume anything. In my writing (in my blog, for instance) I attempt to do what some writers do these days and that is to alternate gender in paragraphs or sections when the gender is immaterial or unknown--and I failed to notice the gender designation in the OP. I apologize if anyone took offense.

Senders! Tthis kind of stuff gets really inaccurate and off-topic quickly.

There is no single "AMGA way." If it works, it's safe, it's time-efficient, doesn't create hassle/drama, you're probably going to a "pass" from an instructor of examiner.

While the SPI program strongly encourages the use of a GriGri, I went thru it and passed using an ATC-Guide. I continued through the rest of the rock program (and alpine and ski) and there is no set "AMGA way." WayS maybe...but I don't recall an instructor ever saying to me "You gotta do it this way"...

If a back-up is called for (high loads, sketchy stance, long lower, icy rope, etc etc), of course a guide/climber should use one. With a Munter, a redirected plaquette, etc, the device matters less than the circumstance and situation.

Please don't take an inaccurate statement about this mythical "AMGA way" and turn it into the "AMGA standard." If there's a standard with this stuff, it's "right technique at the right time." No more, no less. It sucks, because one guy's misstatement on a forum provokes a response like "The AMGA, whatever"....

There's no AMGA way! A longtime IFMGA mtn guide and instructor for the AMGA, Marc Chauvin, has a book coming out in March/April called The Mountain Guide Manual--and there will be tons of stuff in there that is hopefully new and different to most of us....and it will shatter the myth of "The AMGA Way"...check it out!

elevationoutdoors.com/the-m…

Guy Keesee wrote:wow... this sure got complicated quick. Your already belaying someone.... they fall off... so you lower them all the way back down to the deck. Nothing wrong with doing that... I do it all the time when the situation warrants it. So The AMGA.. now forbids ATC lowering, whatever.

Absolutely not. Check out the "load strand direct" lower in The Mountain Guide Manual when it comes out, brudda!

There is no single "AMGA way." If it works, it's safe, it's time-efficient, doesn't create hassle/drama, you're probably going to a "pass" from an instructor of examiner.

While the SPI program strongly encourages the use of a GriGri, I went thru it and passed using an ATC-Guide. I continued through the rest of the rock program (and alpine and ski) and there is no set "AMGA way."

WayS maybe...but I don't recall an instructor ever saying to me "You gotta do it this way"...

Please don't take an inaccurate statement about this mythical "AMGA way" and turn it into the "AMGA standard."

If there's a standard with this stuff, it's "right technique at the right time." No more, no less.

It sucks, because one guy's misstatement on a forum provokes a response like "The AMGA, whatever".... There's no AMGA way!

Here's the issue, AMGA examiners are independent since they're all over the place.

I've taken the SPI training a couple of times over my life with different instructors. I've reupped my certification three times in three separate areas with three separate examiners.

Were the examiners the same in their expectations? Definitely not.

Would one examiner require actions that directly contradict previous examiners statements from 2 year prior? You Betcha.

Thus, when people speak about their experience in the "AMGA Way" it's not unexpected that people would take their individual personal experience with a supposedly standardized test and extend to to be what every instance of that standard will look like.

You're correct in that the official AMGA Way is to use the most efficient method that maximizes safety without adding undue time constraints. The problem is that some examiners and instructors follow the "letter" of that standard while others follow the "intent" of that standard.

There is no "AMGA Way" but there damn well is a "My Examiner/Instructor's Understanding and Application of the AMGA Way"

coppolillo..... thanks for clearing that up. I don't spend the time and read about all the "new methods" ... I read up and test, practice, things when ever I get something new to use.

Good to know the AMGA is flexible bout techniques... there are many ways to "skin the kat" as you well know.

climb on

EDIT: Thanks Kevin

Yes, Kevin...that happens, especially within the SPI program...gets better, though, the further you go in the progression! Right on--good job keeping your training/cert going! The SPI book (also from Falcon) came out pretty well, I thought...tons of useful stuff in there.....

RC

It's expired now as I moved away from my summer camp directorship (and the consistent guiding that came with it)

I'm real-worlding it now and can't wait for when I can get the next level and go back to guiding once my partner is making actual money.

Daniel, offended? Nah. I just thought it curious enough to comment on.

kevin deweese wrote:It's expired now as I moved away from my summer camp directorship (and the consistent guiding that came with it) I'm real-worlding it now and can't wait for when I can get the next level and go back to guiding once my partner is making actual money.

This topic is way off the rails now so I ask this Question.

Kevin

The AMGA. You get certified by them... you then purchase your insurance through them?

Are they the only game in town?

coppolillo wrote:Senders! Tthis kind of stuff gets really inaccurate and off-topic quickly. There is no single "AMGA way." If it works, it's safe, it's time-efficient, doesn't create hassle/drama, you're probably going to a "pass" from an instructor of examiner.

We'll be able to agree on the AMGA Way as soon as we can all agree on what's "safe".

In addition to the typical lowering of the climber in a bottom-managed TR setting, I often lower people using a Munter on a high anchor. Or using a plain ole ATC on my harness redirected through a high point. Current AMGA practice deems 2 of these 3 not safe. I, and countless others, have been doing that for decades. Not to suggest an accident can't possibly happen, but is the AMGA definition of safe "lightning, rockfall, and meteorite proof"?

Optimistic wrote:If you're really worried about the person's skills, I'd say that having them arrive alone at the anchor you're lowering them to and trusting them to clip in safely (or build an anchor!?) seems even more complicated than rappelling. I'd set them up to rappel, and then rap myself with extensive demonstration of how to rap as I left the anchor, then keep them on a fireman's belay as they rapped. All the while I'd be cursing myself for exposing such an inexperienced person to this situation (I've done it too!). This way you're in control the whole time, most especially when they're getting established at the lower anchor, which could have tragic consequences if effed up.

I second this and have done it a few times with novice climbers. The fact is, the novice climber's belay device will not interfere with your rap if you extend their belay device before you connect it to the rap anchor. This also may keep their device from catching in their hair on the rap. (Which I have done to myself before, and rescued at least 1 partner from, it's very uncomfortable.) You can judge whether or not the person can set up their own autoblock for their added security and comfort, but always give them a fireman's belay.

Another alternative (I used two weeks ago) is to share a belay device by extending it using a double-length sling with a knot in the middle, girth hitched to one harness and double-carabinered to the other. This works especially well with smaller climbers (eg. children).

I agree that stranding a novice two raps down while you make those subsequent raps and having them hook themselves into the anchor is not the greatest of ideas. Usually raps are at the end of the day and I've seen some extremely intelligent and intermediately skilled climbers do some strange things when it comes to connecting to the anchor.

If you want to cover 70m with a single rap, consider investing in, and learning how to use, some double ropes.

cheers.
-chris